Contract years, Cobb vs CMJ.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

3 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

That's not where I was getting at.  IF we tell him we're not interested in re-signing him even if he's willing to do a reasonable deal, where do we stand next offseason?  We've got Nick Perry and nothing else.  We're stuck either overpaying for a FA acquisition or forced to use multiple high picks to fill that position.  We're in the same boat as we were in 2015.

Any way you slice it, we have an edge position that will take significant resources to change.

I suspect the decision on Clay will be all about how Pettine views his fit with the defense and how much money Clay wants or can get elsewhere.  The last point is out of control of the Packers and may be the key to the outcome of this discussion.

[CWood21]

3 minutes ago, Ragnar Danneskjold said:

Any way you slice it, we have an edge position that will take significant resources to change.

I suspect the decision on Clay will be all about how Pettine views his fit with the defense and how much money Clay wants or can get elsewhere.  The last point is out of control of the Packers and may be the key to the outcome of this discussion.

Even if Clay isn't his prime self, but he's willing to give a reasonable deal that's one less resource we have to pump into that position.  That's what I'm getting at.

[Packerraymond]

16 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

That's not where I was getting at.  IF we tell him we're not interested in re-signing him even if he's willing to do a reasonable deal, where do we stand next offseason?  We've got Nick Perry and nothing else.  We're stuck either overpaying for a FA acquisition or forced to use multiple high picks to fill that position.  We're in the same boat as we were in 2015.

We're in the exact same boat our CB room was in 9 months ago. A room that looks mighty fine right now.

[CWood21]

8 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

We're in the exact same boat our CB room was in 9 months ago. A room that looks mighty fine right now.

Ok...so our CB position looks fine, but our OLB situation looks miserable.  If we're using that amount of resources on our OLB, what position are we neglecting?  OL, S, or something else?

[Leader]

8 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

We're in the exact same boat our CB room was in 9 months ago. A room that looks mighty fine right now.

Agree with this. I'm really liking the young guys we've got in the secondary - with focus on the CBs.
I really wish they could stay healthy for more than a game or two.....at most - but KK, JJ, JA are (or will be) players IMO.
If we could EVER get JJones up to speed......
And get Breeland into the mix.......

 

[Packerraymond]

4 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Ok...so our CB position looks fine, but our OLB situation looks miserable.  If we're using that amount of resources on our OLB, what position are we neglecting?  OL, S, or something else?

So your solution is to bring back a contributing member of the miserable and pay him good money?

[CWood21]

4 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

So your solution is to bring back a contributing member of the miserable and pay him good money?

I believe his numbers are going to be closer to his last few seasons, and he'll end up somewhere in that 6-9 sack range.  He's had what 3 garbage RTP penalties so far?  I believe two of those were on legitimate sacks, so his sack total is a bit misleading IMO.  Right now, he's on pace for 1.5 sacks this season.  If those 2 sacks weren't negated out because of the penalty, he'd be on pace for 8 sacks which is still a reasonable number to have.  If he's willing to give me a reasonable deal, I'd re-sign him.

[TheOnlyThing]

11 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

We're in the exact same boat our CB room was in 9 months ago. A room that looks mighty fine right now.

Exactly.

Gute inherited true dumpster fires at both CB and OLB.

He got rid of a lot of the deficient holdovers at both positions in Randall, Rollins, Hawkins, Pipkins, Odom, and Biegel.

He added Alexander, J. Jackson, Tramon, and Breeland to solidify the CB position. 

We know Gute''s not ignoring the OLB problem as he made an offer for Mack and put in a claim for Zettel. 

When Clay's $11M comes off the books after this season, he'll have some resources to devote to the position (though he'll still be saddled with Perry's contract for several more years).

And I would not be surprised if Gute made a further move or two at OLB before this season is over, given that the play at that position certainly warrants it.

[CWood21]

8 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

So your solution is to bring back a contributing member of the miserable and pay him good money?

Either way, let's get back to my point at hand.  What position are you willing to neglect?

[CWood21]

1 minute ago, TheOnlyThing said:

Exactly.

Gute inherited true dumpster fires at both CB and OLB.

He got rid of a lot of the deficient holdovers at both positions in Randall, Rollins, Hawkins, Pipkins, Odom, and Biegel.

He added Alexander, J. Jackson, Tramon, and Breeland to solidify the CB position. 

We know Gute''s not ignoring the OLB problem as he made an offer for Mack and put in a claim for Zettel. 

When Clay's $11M comes off the books after this season, he'll have some resources to devote to the position (though he'll still be saddled with Perry's contract for several more years).

I'll pose the same question to you as I did PR, if you're using the same amount of resources in the OLB position as we did this past draft with CBs, what position are you willing to put aside until next year?  Are you willing to ignore the RT position where Bryan Bulaga has looked incredibly pedestrian?  Are you ignoring the S position where none of HHCD, Kentrell Brice, or Josh Jones have managed to take ahold of the position?  Are you rolling forward with the Oren Burks/Blake Martinez combo?  Are you ignoring the future DL needs?    You can't fill every hole every offseason.  You have to prioritize it.  If you're going to pump 2 of your top 64 picks into the OLB position, which position are you willing to neglect?

5 minutes ago, TheOnlyThing said:

And I would not be surprised if Gute made a further move or two at OLB before this season is over, given that the play at that position certainly warrants it.

Whose available that's going to make an impact?  Best case scenario, you're going to find someone whose a marginal improvement over what we've currently got.  Realistically speaking, you're not going to fix this position in-season.  You point to Khalil Mack, but the reality is that players like him don't come available very often so you have to make an offer when you get the chance to.  That's really what it boils down to.  Yes, they made a claim on Anthony Zettel, but they haven't made a move for a pass rusher outside of that.  Why?  Do you think Gute is intentionally sitting on his hands, or is this clearly a case of there not being any EDGE available that are worth anything?

[TheOnlyThing]

20 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

I believe his numbers are going to be closer to his last few seasons, and he'll end up somewhere in that 6-9 sack range.  He's had what 3 garbage RTP penalties so far?  I believe two of those were on legitimate sacks, so his sack total is a bit misleading IMO.  Right now, he's on pace for 1.5 sacks this season.  If those 2 sacks weren't negated out because of the penalty, he'd be on pace for 8 sacks which is still a reasonable number to have.  If he's willing to give me a reasonable deal, I'd re-sign him.

Nope, nope, and nope.

First, Clay has not had "3 garbage RTP penalties so far," he's had 2.

The first RTP penalty against Trubisky was legitimate as Clay himself admitted.

Second, 1 of the 2 "garbage" RTP calls occurred after Cousins released the ball.

Hence, if Clay had not been called for any RTP penalties in 2018, he'd still only have 1.5 sacks. 

Third, without any of the RTP calls, Clay would be on pace for 4.5 sacks in 2018 not 8.

Fourth, Clay has not gotten to 8 or more sacks in a season since 2014. He is just not capable of generating that number of sacks anymore.

Fifth, Clay is putting up these paltry numbers despite the fact he he has not yet missed any time/games due to injury. 

In 2019, you can get the type of production Clay is providing now for about 1/8 of what the Packers are currently paying Clay. 

[Mr. Fussnputz]

5 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

I'll pose the same question to you as I did PR, if you're using the same amount of resources in the OLB position as we did this past draft with CBs, what position are you willing to put aside until next year?  Are you willing to ignore the RT position where Bryan Bulaga has looked incredibly pedestrian?  Are you ignoring the S position where none of HHCD, Kentrell Brice, or Josh Jones have managed to take ahold of the position?  Are you rolling forward with the Oren Burks/Blake Martinez combo?  Are you ignoring the future DL needs?    You can't fill every hole every offseason.  You have to prioritize it.  If you're going to pump 2 of your top 64 picks into the OLB position, which position are you willing to neglect?

Whose available that's going to make an impact?  Best case scenario, you're going to find someone whose a marginal improvement over what we've currently got.  Realistically speaking, you're not going to fix this position in-season.  You point to Khalil Mack, but the reality is that players like him don't come available very often so you have to make an offer when you get the chance to.  That's really what it boils down to.  Yes, they made a claim on Anthony Zettel, but they haven't made a move for a pass rusher outside of that.  Why?  Do you think Gute is intentionally sitting on his hands, or is this clearly a case of there not being any EDGE available that are worth anything?

What position to neglect? Remember, Bulaga is coming off a knee injury. His play will hopefully improve as he gets his leg back into shape. I would spend a mid-round choice or two on interior OL. Our Gs and Cs are mediocre. Safeties seem to come available in free agency, so that could be addressed there. I would roll forward with Burks and Martinez. D- line has some young talent, so that can be deferred. I go heavy OLB. No problem with that.

[Packerraymond]

18 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Either way, let's get back to my point at hand.  What position are you willing to neglect?

If my choice is keep the current crop of safeties, or EDGE players, I'm keeping the safeties. However that isn't the choice. We have every start at OL under contract next year, plenty of money for HHCD and if we let Cobb and Matthews go, plenty of money for other positions to, so my answer is none. I'm going to draft two EDGE players, I might look for a vet in FA, I'm bringing back HHCD and I'm going to draft some OL too.

[CWood21]

6 minutes ago, TheOnlyThing said:

Nope, nope, and nope.

First, Clay has not had "3 garbage RTP penalties so far," he's had 2.

The first RTP penalty against Trubisky was legitimate as Clay himself admitted.

Second, 1 of the 2 "garbage" RTP calls occurred after Cousins released the ball.

Hence, if Clay had not been called for any RTP penalties in 2018, he'd still only have 1.5 sacks. 

Third, without any of the RTP calls, Clay would be on pace for 4.5 sacks in 2018 not 8.

Fourth, Clay has not gotten to 8 or more sacks in a season since 2014. He is just not capable of generating that number of sacks anymore.

Fifth, Clay is putting up these paltry numbers despite the fact he he has not yet missed any time/games due to injury. 

In 2019, you can get that type of production Clay is providing now for about 1/8 of what the Packers are currently paying Clay. 

The point I was trying to make was that his current sack total is misleading.  I think that's something we'd all agree upon.  While the numbers might not be there, he's still getting production.  Is he worth the $13M or whatever we're paying him right now?  Obviously not.  But we're also crossing into the SSS concern area as well.  Right now, Kyler Fackrell is on pace for nearly 10 sacks.  So if you're going to assume that Clay is going to keep this production, shouldn't you apply it equally across the board?

[CWood21]

9 minutes ago, Mr. Fussnputz said:

What position to neglect? Remember, Bulaga is coming off a knee injury. His play will hopefully improve as he gets his leg back into shape. I would spend a mid-round choice or two on interior OL. Our Gs and Cs are mediocre. Safeties seem to come available in free agency, so that could be addressed there. I would roll forward with Burks and Martinez. D- line has some young talent, so that can be deferred. I go heavy OLB. No problem with that.

I'm abundantly aware of the situation regarding Bulaga.  But he'll be 30 years old by the time the draft rolls around, has only played a full 16 games slate twice in his 8 seasons in the NFL, and he's due another $8.35M next year.  That's a ticking time bomb as far as I'm concerned.  So you've invested your top 64 picks into a pair of EDGE and a S, what happens if/when Bulaga gets hurt?  Or what happens if Jimmy Graham regresses hard next year?  You've essentially punted those position until next year.