Tyreek Hill

[BlaqOptic]

On 10/19/2018 at 10:06 PM, BAConrad said:

Also, there's a full season of tape from 2017 that shows Tyreke Hill is a better WR than DeSean Jackson ever was. 

 

Tbh I think it's actually pretty stupid of a thing to say that Hill hasn't proven yet that he " isn't just gonna be another DeSean Jackson". 

I mean wow. @BlaqOptic....typecast much? Tyreke Hill is the next Tyreke Hill. You can't compare him to any other WR because frankly there is no WR in NFL history like him at this point. 

 

Tyreek Hill had all of 1,100 yards and 7 TDs as a Receiver last year and an additional 1 Returning TD. His numbers were almost identical to Jackson's in his 2nd and 3rd years in the league only Hill had a better catch rate. The fact that people are trying to annoint him a Top 5 Wide Receiver is absolutely ridiculous. There has never been a time in the NFl where coming off an 1,100 yard and  TD season someone would be considered a Top 5 WR. Yet because hes' fast we're looking at his potential and ignoring guys who are putting up some legendary numbers OVER YEARS? Come on now. The ONLY reason to take Hill over Brown, Green, Jones, OBJ and Nuk would be his age. Plain and simple.

[jrry32]

36 minutes ago, BlaqOptic said:

Tyreek Hill had all of 1,100 yards and 7 TDs as a Receiver last year and an additional 1 Returning TD. His numbers were almost identical to Jackson's in his 2nd and 3rd years in the league only Hill had a better catch rate. The fact that people are trying to annoint him a Top 5 Wide Receiver is absolutely ridiculous. There has never been a time in the NFl where coming off an 1,100 yard and  TD season someone would be considered a Top 5 WR. Yet because hes' fast we're looking at his potential and ignoring guys who are putting up some legendary numbers OVER YEARS? Come on now. The ONLY reason to take Hill over Brown, Green, Jones, OBJ and Nuk would be his age. Plain and simple.

Yeah. I get that he's fast and fun to watch, but there's "no WR in NFL history like him at this point" is just nuts. Hill is an undersized, explosive WR with elite speed. He's hardly the only player like that in NFL history. In recent history, you have DeSean Jackson, Mike Wallace, Steve Smith, Santana Moss, Laveranues Coles, Joey Galloway, etc. Look at Hill's season to date. He's had two monster games against NE and LAC. His other games alternated between decent and good. 

[JAF-N72EX]

3 hours ago, BlaqOptic said:

Tyreek Hill had all of 1,100 yards and 7 TDs as a Receiver last year and an additional 1 Returning TD. His numbers were almost identical to Jackson's in his 2nd and 3rd years in the league only Hill had a better catch rate. The fact that people are trying to annoint him a Top 5 Wide Receiver is absolutely ridiculous. There has never been a time in the NFl where coming off an 1,100 yard and  TD season someone would be considered a Top 5 WR. Yet because hes' fast we're looking at his potential and ignoring guys who are putting up some legendary numbers OVER YEARS? Come on now. The ONLY reason to take Hill over Brown, Green, Jones, OBJ and Nuk would be his age. Plain and simple.

Don't you know, longevity doesn't mean anything on this forum. All it takes is for one good year by a player and he is suddenly top-5. Hell, sometimes even after just one prime time game.

Anyhow, while I agree with your "wait and see" approach with hill and using Jackson as an example -- who is a pretty fair comparison based on their skill-sets, as well as the coaching staffs-- Hill is much more versatile,  has a higher upside and can actually do more than just play in space like Jackson. Hill can actually play the slot and against short zone coverages.  

You also have to take into consideration that Jackson was playing with a gunslinger like McNabb(albeit out of his prime) and had Maclin (who was better than Jackson) to help take the pressure off of him........Hill doesn't have that. He has had Smith, a rookie QB, the oft-injured Kelce and Watkins. In fact, I would argue that it was Hill's play last year that finally pulled the bubble wrap off of Mr. Conservative (Alex Smith). There's no other reason why a veteran like him who has spent his entire career checking down and then suddenly in one year gets gun-ho with the shots deep downfield.  

Desean JAckson's 2nd year vs Tyreek Hill

Year	Team	Pos	G	GS	Rec	Pass	C%	Yds	TD	Yd/Rec	DYAR	Rank	YAR	Rank	DVOA	Rank	VOA	Rank
2009	PHI	WR	15	15	62	116	53%	1156	9	18.6	203	20	192	23	9.50%	29	8.40%	32
Year	Team	Pos	G	GS	Rec	Pass	C%	Yds	TD	Yd/Rec	DYAR	Rank	YAR	Rank	DVOA	Rank	VOA	Rank
2017	KC	WR	15	13	76	106	72%	1192	7	15.7	304	8	303	9	23.60%	7	23.40%	6

The one thing I will say in Jackson's defense is that Reid is definitely a better coach now than he was back then and his play-calling has certainly evolved. 

[jrry32]

1 hour ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Don't you know, longevity doesn't mean anything on this forum. All it takes is for one good year by a player and he is suddenly top-5. Hell, sometimes even after just one prime time game.

Anyhow, while I agree with your "wait and see" approach with hill and using Jackson as an example -- who is a pretty fair comparison based on their skill-sets, as well as the coaching staffs-- Hill is much more versatile,  has a higher upside and can actually do more than just play in space like Jackson. Hill can actually play the slot and against short zone coverages.  

You also have to take into consideration that Jackson was playing with a gunslinger like McNabb(albeit out of his prime) and had Maclin (who was better than Jackson) to help take the pressure off of him........Hill doesn't have that. He has had Smith, a rookie QB, the oft-injured Kelce and Watkins. In fact, I would argue that it was Hill's play last year that finally pulled the bubble wrap off of Mr. Conservative (Alex Smith). There's no other reason why a veteran like him who has spent his entire career checking down and then suddenly in one year gets gun-ho with the shots deep downfield.  

Desean JAckson's 2nd year vs Tyreek Hill

 

Year	Team	Pos	G	GS	Rec	Pass	C%	Yds	TD	Yd/Rec	DYAR	Rank	YAR	Rank	DVOA	Rank	VOA	Rank
2009	PHI	WR	15	15	62	116	53%	1156	9	18.6	203	20	192	23	9.50%	29	8.40%	32
Year	Team	Pos	G	GS	Rec	Pass	C%	Yds	TD	Yd/Rec	DYAR	Rank	YAR	Rank	DVOA	Rank	VOA	Rank
2017	KC	WR	15	13	76	106	72%	1192	7	15.7	304	8	303	9	23.60%	7	23.40%	6

The one thing I will say in Jackson's defense is that Reid is definitely a better coach now than he was back then and his play-calling has certainly evolved. 

Wait . . . what? Kelce is not oft injured. He's missed a total of 1 game since he became a starter in 2014. And he only missed that game because Andy Reid sat his starters. Alex Smith was better than late-career McNabb. Hill has never played with a rookie QB. Give me Travis Kelce over Jeremy Maclin. I'm not even trying to argue that Jackson was superior to Hill, but you don't need to misrepresent their respective situations.

[JAF-N72EX]

46 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Wait . . . what? Kelce is not oft injured. He's missed a total of 1 game since he became a starter in 2014. And he only missed that game because Andy Reid sat his starters. Alex Smith was better than late-career McNabb. Hill has never played with a rookie QB. Give me Travis Kelce over Jeremy Maclin. I'm not even trying to argue that Jackson was superior to Hill, but you don't need to misrepresent their respective situations.

I don't have time right now to go through all of this but I really hope you're joking about this.

Nevermind, now I do have a few minutes.

So, is if a player doesn't miss a game that is listed on a stat sheet someplace, he can't be injured. Gotcha. Alex Smith was better than even late McNabb, Gotcha. Mahomes is not basically a rookie this year, Gotcha.  This is laughable.

[jrry32]

7 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

I don't have time right now to go through all of this but I really hope you're joking about this.

I hope you're joking. You made a number of misstatements. Post when you have time. Don't offer joke responses like that. 

[JAF-N72EX]

2 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

I hope you're joking. You made a number of misstatements. Post when you have time. Don't offer joke responses like that. 

False. You were caught stating silly crap for no reason and got called out on it. But thanks for playing.

[jrry32]

Just now, JustAnotherFan said:

False. You were caught stating silly crap for no reason and got called out on it. But thanks for playing.

You did zero calling out on it. You have offered nothing substantive. Put up or shut up. But I'll do your job for you:

1. In 2009, Jeremy Maclin was a rookie WR. He was neither better than DeSean at that point nor better than Kelce is now. Ignorant statement.

2. Travis Kelce hasn't missed a game due to injury since he was put on IR as a rookie. He's missed time in a couple games due to concussions, but calling him oft injured could not be further from the truth. Ignorant statement.

3. Alex Smith, while not a great QB, had a very good year in 2017. Late-career McNabb had a good year in 2009. When compared to their peers, Smith's 2017 numbers were superior to McNabb's 2009 numbers. Thus, I take 2017 Smith over 2009 McNabb.

4. Tyreek Hill did not play in Week 17, which was the only game that Mahomes played in 2017. Accordingly, I'm not sure how he played with a rookie QB. 

Put it all together, and we see clearly that you misrepresented the situations. Do you want to own up to that, or do you want to keep posturing? I feel like I'm forgetting something . . . hmm . . . oh right, thanks for playing.

[Hunter2_1]

@JustAnotherFan is that 53% catch rate for DeSean? Jesus. I think I'd take Hill just on that basis alone. Unless that's taking other things into account, like a deflected pass would count against DJ or something. 

[JAF-N72EX]

4 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

1. In 2009, Jeremy Maclin was a rookie WR. He was neither better than DeSean at that point nor better than Kelce is now. Ignorant statement.

Who said anything about Maclin in 2009? Nobody. I was talking in general over Jackosn's career vs Hill's.

6 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

2. Travis Kelce hasn't missed a game due to injury since he was put on IR as a rookie. He's missed time in a couple games due to concussions, but calling him oft injured could not be further from the truth. Ignorant statement.

So players have to miss game to be considered injured in your book. That's ignorant.

8 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

3. Alex Smith, while not a great QB, had a very good year in 2017. Late-career McNabb had a good year in 2009. When compared to their peers, Smith's 2017 numbers were superior to McNabb's 2009 numbers. Thus, I take 2017 Smith over 2009 McNabb.

Just stop. You are clearly just box scouting and never actually watched McNabb. Even past his prime he was a top QB. How many times have Smith held that title?

10 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

4. Tyreek Hill did not play in Week 17, which was the only game that Mahomes played in 2017. Accordingly, I'm not sure how he played with a rookie QB. 

God help you if you don't get it......  

[JAF-N72EX]

6 minutes ago, Hunter2_1 said:

@JustAnotherFan is that 53% catch rate for DeSean? Jesus. I think I'd take Hill just on that basis alone. Unless that's taking other things into account, like a deflected pass would count against DJ or something. 

Yep. 

[jrry32]

13 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Who said anything about Maclin in 2009? Nobody. I was talking in general over Jackosn's career vs Hill's.

2009 was the only year where Maclin and McNabb played together. You explicitly mentioned Maclin and McNabb in the same sentence. You explicitly mentioned 2009 in your post. Are you now going to backtrack?

Quote

So players have to miss game to be considered injured in your book. That's ignorant.

I fully expected this to be your response. It's indicative of a person who screws up and realizes it but can't own up to it. Just about every NFL player is playing through bumps and bruises. Just about every NFL players gets nicked up over the course of the season. If your definition for "oft injured" is "played through minor injuries," just about every player in the NFL is "oft injured." Good luck selling that one to any reasonable person reading this conversation. Just own up to your error.

Quote

Just stop. You are clearly just box scouting and never actually watched McNabb. Even past his prime he was a top QB. How many times have Smith held that title?

I watched Donovan "The King of One-Hoppers" McNabb. He was an underrated QB due to his supporting cast during his prime and an overrated QB due to his supporting cast (and Andy Reid) at the end of his career in Philly. He went to Washington in 2010 and face-planted for that reason. 2017 Alex Smith was better than 2009 Donovan McNabb.

Quote

God help you if you don't get it......  

You're right. I don't get it. I don't get how a person can make incorrect statements and then refuse to own them. It's not something I understand. I am accountable for my own words.

[Chiefer]

He just opens up a whole offense. There's so.much you can do with him, he's an amazing chess piece. He doesn't just blow the top off the defense like your traditional deep threat

Go route outside, the next play motion inside then take a handoff, jet sweep the next play, then in the slot on a slant, then back outside on a post, then a fake handoff jet sweep, WR screen, returns the punt for a TD, then a direct snap wildcat run, etc., etc., etc . 

Knows all the routes on the tree, double moves, and he can be 80 yards down the field and still track the bal, outleap the defender at 5'9 ,and catch it.

And 4 years ago this guy was a Running Back

[3rivers]

with the way the league is now with rules and the passing game, it's not as easy to declare the top 5 WR's as this can fluctuate.  It's splitting hairs and there are so many top tier WR's in talent that might not have a top tier QB and or OL on their team. Hopkins  had that for years but now that he has Watson, he is always mentioned. 

Hill is the most dangerous, I can't see how anyone would dispute this.  It has to have the DB's the most uneasy when they see #10 running at full speed, because nobody can match his speed AND he can catch.   He also is on a top team with a balanced supporting cast: top QB, RB and good enough OL and then best TE. It all helps doesn't it. Double Kelce or stack 8, just audible to Hill and watch what happens. 

[jrry32]

Yeah, Hill is ridiculous. He's top 5.