Tyreek Hill

[iknowcool]

57 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

How has Hill been more impressive? 

Johnson sacrificed a little speed (and I do mean a little, he still ran a 4.35) for major size, strength, and contested catch ability. Hill has a lot to show before he’s on Megatron’s level.

Maybe if you are basing it off 40 times, but Johnson definitely isn't only a "little" slower than Tyreek Hill.  Johnson was fast (and I'll preface this by saying he obviously is a better WR than Hill, it isn't even a discussion), but it isn't on Hill's level.  Hill is legit one of the fastest on-field guys I have ever seen.  He goes from 0 to 100 unlike anyone I have seen in a while, even when he's cutting corners.  It's crazy, I've posted this video before to support him but it really is one of the best examples of someone who has speed that goes beyond 40 times and track times.  Johnson was a legend, but he isn't making this kind of play against a defense that had the kind of angles they had against Hill:

That man hit 100 going laterally and easily beat the Broncos to the edge in a 70 yard play that he made feel like 20.  It is one of my favorite plays from any player over the last 3 years.  

I knew he was special last year, but he's proving it even more-so this year.  I didn't watch much of him in college so I don't know how far along he was then, but his ability to match his speed with precise route-running and some of the best catch-in-traffic ability among WRs in the NFL?  It's super hard to defend him.  Even if you play his route perfectly, he's got the speed and hands to make it not even matter.  I know DeSean was mentioned earlier and I get the comparison (and DeSean has been underrated throughout his career), but I never watched Jackson and came away thinking as highly about him as I have about Hill.  Maybe it is recency bias, but I think Hill is going to stay on pace to have a really special career if he stays healthy.  

[jrry32]

15 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

Maybe if you are basing it off 40 times, but Johnson definitely isn't only a "little" slower than Tyreek Hill.  Johnson was fast (and I'll preface this by saying he obviously is a better WR than Hill, it isn't even a discussion), but it isn't on Hill's level.  Hill is legit one of the fastest on-field guys I have ever seen.  He goes from 0 to 100 unlike anyone I have seen in a while, even when he's cutting corners.  It's crazy, I've posted this video before to support him but it really is one of the best examples of someone who has speed that goes beyond 40 times and track times.  Johnson was a legend, but he isn't making this kind of play against a defense that had the kind of angles they had against Hill:

That man hit 100 going laterally and easily beat the Broncos to the edge in a 70 yard play that he made feel like 20.  It is one of my favorite plays from any player over the last 3 years.  

I knew he was special last year, but he's proving it even more-so this year.  I didn't watch much of him in college so I don't know how far along he was then, but his ability to match his speed with precise route-running and some of the best catch-in-traffic ability among WRs in the NFL?  It's super hard to defend him.  Even if you play his route perfectly, he's got the speed and hands to make it not even matter.  I know DeSean was mentioned earlier and I get the comparison (and DeSean has been underrated throughout his career), but I never watched Jackson and came away thinking as highly about him as I have about Hill.  Maybe it is recency bias, but I think Hill is going to stay on pace to have a really special career if he stays healthy.  

You are right that he couldn't do that, but there's no way Hill is doing this:

Maybe you're only talking speed. I agree with you there. But in terms of being a deep threat, lol at anyone who claims Tyreek is better than Calvin . . . or on par with him. Tyreek is a freak, and he has really changed my mind on him this year, but Calvin was so much more than that. I'm not sold that Tyreek is the best deep threat in the NFL right now. I'm not disputing that he's the fastest WR, but I'm not sold he's better than OBJ as a pure deep threat.

[Soko]

26 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

Maybe if you are basing it off 40 times, but Johnson definitely isn't only a "little" slower than Tyreek Hill.  Johnson was fast (and I'll preface this by saying he obviously is a better WR than Hill, it isn't even a discussion), but it isn't on Hill's level.  Hill is legit one of the fastest on-field guys I have ever seen.  He goes from 0 to 100 unlike anyone I have seen in a while, even when he's cutting corners.  It's crazy, I've posted this video before to support him but it really is one of the best examples of someone who has speed that goes beyond 40 times and track times.  Johnson was a legend, but he isn't making this kind of play against a defense that had the kind of angles they had against Hill:

That man hit 100 going laterally and easily beat the Broncos to the edge in a 70 yard play that he made feel like 20.  It is one of my favorite plays from any player over the last 3 years.  

I knew he was special last year, but he's proving it even more-so this year.  I didn't watch much of him in college so I don't know how far along he was then, but his ability to match his speed with precise route-running and some of the best catch-in-traffic ability among WRs in the NFL?  It's super hard to defend him.  Even if you play his route perfectly, he's got the speed and hands to make it not even matter.  I know DeSean was mentioned earlier and I get the comparison (and DeSean has been underrated throughout his career), but I never watched Jackson and came away thinking as highly about him as I have about Hill.  Maybe it is recency bias, but I think Hill is going to stay on pace to have a really special career if he stays healthy.  

When did Hill become elite at contested catches? He’s good, and hand a handful, but not anywhere near the stratosphere of Calvin. 

And being a deep threat isn’t just about speed. If it was, Trindon Holliday or Devin Hester would’ve been great deep ball receivers. Hill has more ball-tracking skill, better hands, and uses his route running better than those guys - but not better than Calvin.

People are getting caught up in some recency bias here.

[Soko]

56 minutes ago, sammymvpknight said:

Football isn’t a math equation. We’ll agree to disagree. It’s thanksgiving and prefer to not have circular arguments today

Shrug. Seems to me you posted your opinion and don’t want to back it up.

[iknowcool]

1 minute ago, jrry32 said:

You are right that he couldn't do that, but there's no way Hill is doing this:

Maybe you're only talking speed. I agree with you there. But in terms of being a deep threat, lol at anyone who claims Tyreek is better than Calvin . . . or on par with him. Tyreek is a freak, and he has really changed my mind on him this year, but Calvin was so much more than that. I'm not sold that Tyreek is the best deep threat in the NFL right now. I'm not disputing that he's the fastest WR, but I'm not sold he's better than OBJ as a pure deep threat.

Oh yeah, I agree with you.  I was just talking speed, I disagree with saying Johnson was only a "little" slower.  The speeds aren't comparable at all.  Hill's on another level in that regard and it's a big part of his game, along with other reasons.

It's close between him and Beckham as far as who is the better deep threat.  Beckham isn't as fast as Hill, but his on-field speed and acceleration is still insane and he's a better route-runner.  Beckham's been one of my favorites since college so I'm kinda biased towards him.  I'd say Hill is better at getting open deep, but they are about on par at generating big plays - Beckham just has trash at QB.  

Right now, I'm thinking I'd rank the WRs: Brown, Jones, Hopkins/Beckham (it's hard for me to pick; my heart says Beckham but I get the arguments for Hop), and then I'd probably take Hill over Thomas and Green if I'm being completely honest.  I just like his game more than those guys.  They might offer you more on an every snap basis, but I think Hill is better at opening up the offense.  

[iknowcool]

11 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

When did Hill become elite at contested catches? He’s good, and hand a handful, but not anywhere near the stratosphere of Calvin. 

And being a deep threat isn’t just about speed. If it was, Trindon Holliday or Devin Hester would’ve been great deep ball receivers. Hill has more ball-tracking skill, better hands, and uses his route running better than those guys - but not better than Calvin.

People are getting caught up in some recency bias here.

I never said it was all about speed.  I was just responding to you saying Johnson was only a little slower than Hill.  I disagreed with you there.  Hill's speed is on another level.  Johnson was unquestionably a better deep threat, but he mostly did it in different ways than Hill.  
 

And LIS, it isn't a discussion who is better between Johnson and Hill.  So I wasn't trying to dispute that.  The rest of my post after the speed point was just my opinion on Hill in general, not necessarily in response to you or the Johnson/Hill "debate".

 

[Soko]

34 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

I never said it was all about speed.  I was just responding to you saying Johnson was only a little slower than Hill.  I disagreed with you there.  Hill's speed is on another level. 

Hill has the Deion Sanders, Chris Johnson, Randy Moss-type other worldly speed. Calvin just had regular old elite-speed. You need the former to really burn defenders who have angles on you. 

But Calvin is a 4.3 guy, Hill is probably a 4.2 guy. Semantics on the difference.

[jrry32]

1 hour ago, iknowcool said:

Oh yeah, I agree with you.  I was just talking speed, I disagree with saying Johnson was only a "little" slower.  The speeds aren't comparable at all.  Hill's on another level in that regard and it's a big part of his game, along with other reasons.

It's close between him and Beckham as far as who is the better deep threat.  Beckham isn't as fast as Hill, but his on-field speed and acceleration is still insane and he's a better route-runner.  Beckham's been one of my favorites since college so I'm kinda biased towards him.  I'd say Hill is better at getting open deep, but they are about on par at generating big plays - Beckham just has trash at QB.  

Right now, I'm thinking I'd rank the WRs: Brown, Jones, Hopkins/Beckham (it's hard for me to pick; my heart says Beckham but I get the arguments for Hop), and then I'd probably take Hill over Thomas and Green if I'm being completely honest.  I just like his game more than those guys.  They might offer you more on an every snap basis, but I think Hill is better at opening up the offense.  

Saints fans will get angry at me (and probably call me biased), but I don't think Thomas is the special player some others do. He has outstanding hands, is physical, and is a good route runner, but he's benefiting from Brees and that offense. I think if you replaced him with a comparable WR (like Adam Thielen, for example), we'd see the same level of production.

[SmittyBacall]

3 hours ago, sammymvpknight said:

Football isn’t a math equation. We’ll agree to disagree. It’s thanksgiving and prefer to not have circular arguments today

How could you dispute that speed isn’t the only factor to being a deep threat?

It’s not a circular argument. It’s pretty straight forward.

[SmittyBacall]

13 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Saints fans will get angry at me (and probably call me biased), but I don't think Thomas is the special player some others do. He has outstanding hands, is physical, and is a good route runner, but he's benefiting from Brees and that offense. I think if you replaced him with a comparable WR (like Adam Thielen, for example), we'd see the same level of production.

Thank you. I’ve been saying this for awhile. He’s special in his own way, but not in comparison to the leagues best.

[MrnastiesNO]

Hill is a monster but not elite as a wr, on the same note he is the best playmaker in the league... when they said speed kills, they were talking about hill

[Thomas5737]

Speed may not kill but it definitely can choke you into a hospital.

I think Hill and Deion have the freakiest speed I have ever seen. Hill's catch percentage is also at an extremely high level this year, especially for a WR averaging 17 yards per catch. Hill wouldn't be as good without Mahomes but he has him and that combination is the scariest in the league right now.

[MrnastiesNO]

55 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

Speed may not kill but it definitely can choke you into a hospital.

I think Hill and Deion have the freakiest speed I have ever seen. Hill's catch percentage is also at an extremely high level this year, especially for a WR averaging 17 yards per catch. Hill wouldn't be as good without Mahomes but he has him and that combination is the scariest in the league right now.

I agree... the separation  he can create is incredible but a lot of that has to do with Patrick’s ability to extend time in the pocket and allow him to get free..

this is a match made in heaven and the only other QBs I can see him putting up numbers like this with are .... Rodgers and Wilson.

 

[MookieMonstah]

22 hours ago, jrry32 said:

Saints fans will get angry at me (and probably call me biased), but I don't think Thomas is the special player some others do. He has outstanding hands, is physical, and is a good route runner, but he's benefiting from Brees and that offense. I think if you replaced him with a comparable WR (like Adam Thielen, for example), we'd see the same level of production.

Well, yeah, Thielen is also a top 7 WR and a very similar player.

[MookieMonstah]

22 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

Thank you. I’ve been saying this for awhile. He’s special in his own way, but not in comparison to the leagues best.

He's a more talented Anquan Boldin. He's right in the mix after AB, Hopkins, ODB, Julio.