footbull3196 Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 3 hours ago, game3525 said: I am not saying it wasn't a great season. I am talking about overall competition. Brady was great, but no other player was having a standout season in 2010. I gotta think Philip Rivers would have had a pretty strong case for MVP in 2010 had he made the playoffs. 30 TDs to only 13 INTs with 4700 yards and 8.7 ypa as well as saving the Chargers from their 2-5 start has to count for something. Lets not forget that the Chargers had the #2 offense in terms of points scored and #1 offense in terms of yards gained, as well as the #1 defense in terms of yards allowed, yet their special teams were 32nd in the league by a wide margin. And yet Rivers still led the team to 9-7 in a season where special teams single handedly cost them 3 or 4 games alone and they still only missed out on the playoffs by 1 game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footbull3196 Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 11 minutes ago, BayRaider said: An 8-8 team is not producing an MVP. That doesnt make Manning more deserving of having an MVP award in a year where he was closer to an above average QB more than anything else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
game3525 Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, footbull3196 said: I gotta think Philip Rivers would have had a pretty strong case for MVP in 2010 had he made the playoffs. 30 TDs to only 13 INTs with 4700 yards and 8.7 ypa as well as saving the Chargers from their 2-5 start has to count for something. Lets not forget that the Chargers had the #2 offense in terms of points scored and #1 offense in terms of yards gained, as well as the #1 defense in terms of yards allowed, yet their special teams were 32nd in the league by a wide margin. And yet Rivers still led the team to 9-7 in a season where special teams single handedly cost them 3 or 4 games alone and they still only missed out on the playoffs by 1 game It was a great season by Rivers given the circumstances, but he was better in 2008 and 2009 IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footbull3196 Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 9 minutes ago, game3525 said: It was a great season by Rivers given the circumstances, but he was better in 2008 and 2009 IMO. If the Chargers had been at full strength I would probably agree with you. But other than Antonio Gates, their leading receiver was Malcom Floyd with 37 catches for 717 yards and 6 TDs. They played the vast majority of that year with guys like Patrick Crayton, Legedu Naanee, Buster Davis, Seyi Ajirotutu, Kelley Washington. This was the year that Vincent Jackson held out for more than half of the season in hopes of getting a new contract and wasnt all that productive when he came back. I think he had more of a case for MVP than Vick because Vick literally had 2 big games against the Jaguars and Redskins and a whole lot of average ones down the stretch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich homie Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 1 hour ago, footbull3196 said: He deserved 2, and that was in 2004 and 2013 where he was unquestionably the best player in the league. Out of the other 3 that I consider to be "not really deserved", the strongest case he had for an MVP out of those 3 was by far 2003. McNair wasnt a particularly strong MVP winner, and Manning did play really well in a season where no other candidate stood out. But the 2008 and 2009 MVP awards were utter jokes In 2008, he entered midseason at 3-4 with 10 TDs to 9 INTs. You're telling me that a 9 game winning streak with 15 TDs to 3 INTs that wasnt even enough to win them the division was suddenly worthy of an MVP award over Philp Rivers who willed the Chargers to the playoffs when they were dead at 4-8? Hell, I would have rather voted for Andre Johnson with 115/1575/8 on an 8-8 team with Matt Schaub and Sage Rosenfels throwing to him And don't even get me started on his 2009 MVP. Just when you thought it couldnt get worse than him winning MVP in 2008, it did. 33 TDs... to 16 INTs lol. The only players who threw more INTs than Manning that season were Jay Cutler, rookie Matthew Stafford, rookie Mark Sanchez, garbage Jake Delhomme, rookie Josh Freeman, and washed up Matt Hasselbeck. His defense bailed him out time after time after time that year as evidenced by the 416-307 point differential (which is more indicative of a 10-6 / 11-5 team than a 14-2 team), and all we heard about was the media riding him all year long because of how he was "willing the team to victories in close games". He was far from the reason that the team won their first 14 games. There was a 4 game stretch where the Colts deserved to lose every one of those games, yet they pulled them out mainly due to reasons unrelated to Manning. And you'll never guess who got credit for those victories. In particular, these were the most egregious: Week 8 vs SF (W 18-14): Joseph Addai threw a game winning 22 yard TD to Reggie Wayne... with 14:53 left in the 4th quarter. Manning threw no TDs that game. Media narrative was "Peyton leads Colts to 7-0 start for 4th time in career" Week 9 vs Hou (W 20-17): Joseph Addai scored the game winning 2 yard TD run... with 7:11 left in the 4th quarter. Kris Brown missed a 52 yard field goal as time expired that would have sent it to overtime (and this was the season that Brown totally fell apart down the stretch). Manning threw 1 TD and 1 INT that game. Media narrative was "Peyton leads Colts to third 4th quarter come from behind win of the season" Week 10 vs NE (W 35-34): Bill Belichick went for it on 4th and 2 from his own 30... and barely failed due to a ruling that while Kevin Faulk did catch the ball, he did not earn forward progress due to the fact that the ball was juggled. It didn't matter that he was able to control it at the 30 yard line, where the first down was, it mattered that he was pushed back half a yard, which is ultimately where they marked the ball. Manning had the game given to him and only had to drive 30 yards for a game winning touchdown that he never should have had the opportunity for in the first place. But yeah, he was the clutch one for throwing a game winning 1 yard TD pass on a 30 yard drive and not the defense for bailing him out in the first place.... Week 11 @ Baltimore (W 17-15): The Colts won the game on a 25 yard field goal from Matt Stover... with 7:02 left in the 4th quarter. The defense bailed out Manning once again by intercepting Joe Flacco deep in Indianapolis territory (at the Colts' 13 yard line to be exact) in a situation where a field goal would have given them the lead. The special teams then bailed out Manning by stripping Ed Reed on a punt return at Baltimore's 40 yard line with only 30 seconds left in the game. Manning threw for 1 TD and 2 INTs that game. His only touchdown came in the 1st quarter on a ridiculous 1 handed bobbling catch by Dallas Clark. Media narrative was "Peyton Manning leads Colts to 4th consecutive win by 4 points or less" TL;DR - Manning obviously deserved his 2004 and 2013 MVPs. His 2003 MVP was questionable. Philip Rivers deserved it over him in 2008. Drew Brees, Brett Favre, Philip Rivers, and Chris Johnson deserved it over him in 2009 I hate when people do this, where you can see the bigger picture but you just willfully ignore the parts to produce an argument that can support the conclusion you arrived to before you had even gathered the evidence. In 2008, he was clearly injured the first half of the year, and we saw how that affected the Colts. At 3-4 they just were not playing like a playoff team, let alone a Super Bowl contender. Then he went ahead and won 23 consecutive regular season games, torching some great defenses along the way. To say that the streak "wasn't even enough to win the division" is sooo disingenuous that its actually a little bit disgusting. The only reason it wasn't enough to win the division was because the Titans went 13-3 that year. Manning led the Colts to the second best record in the NFL, the one team that was in that division just happened to have the best record. I'm sure you knew that and to present it like its a negative is a big reflection on your post and the argument you make. As for 2009, yeah he threw 16 interceptions, but he still had less turnovers than Brees that year. Also the idea that the defense bailed him out is just so ridiculous that its hard to counter. This is the most egregious part, when you said "His defense bailed him out time after time after time that year as evidenced by the 416-307 point differential (which is more indicative of a 10-6 / 11-5 team than a 14-2 team)" Do you not see the glaring stupidity of that argument? Essentially that statement says that the Colts had the talent of a 10-6 team that for whatever reason, won 14 games that year. Now the simple answer to that little disparity is that Peyton Manning is a great quarterback who was able to lead his team to more victories than was expected of him and them. What you're implying however, is that Peyton Manning was such a terrible quarterback that he was holding back a historic 16-0 capable defense with his terrible play that they only finished 14-2. I would advise you to think about that again for a little while. Now lets look through the four games you think that defined Peyton Manning's 2009 season. Never mind you leaving out his 15 minute win in Miami or the conference clincher in Jacksonville but okay: Week 8 vs SF (W 18-14): Joseph Addai threw a game winning 22 yard TD to Reggie Wayne... with 14:53 left in the 4th quarter. Manning threw no TDs that game. Media narrative was "Peyton leads Colts to 7-0 start for 4th time in career" Everyone and their mother acknowledged that that was Peyton's worst game of the season. I'm not sure what media you take in but absolutely nobody was praising Peyton after that performance. Week 9 vs Hou (W 20-17): Joseph Addai scored the game winning 2 yard TD run... with 7:11 left in the 4th quarter. Kris Brown missed a 52 yard field goal as time expired that would have sent it to overtime (and this was the season that Brown totally fell apart down the stretch). Manning threw 1 TD and 1 INT that game. Media narrative was "Peyton leads Colts to third 4th quarter come from behind win of the season" Manning threw 318 yards on 50 attempts that game. Addai ran for 63 yards on 14 attempts. If you want to claim that Addai led the Colts to that win then go ahead but I'm not so sure the facts agree with you. Week 10 vs NE (W 35-34): Bill Belichick went for it on 4th and 2 from his own 30... and barely failed due to a ruling that while Kevin Faulk did catch the ball, he did not earn forward progress due to the fact that the ball was juggled. It didn't matter that he was able to control it at the 30 yard line, where the first down was, it mattered that he was pushed back half a yard, which is ultimately where they marked the ball. Manning had the game given to him and only had to drive 30 yards for a game winning touchdown that he never should have had the opportunity for in the first place. But yeah, he was the clutch one for throwing a game winning 1 yard TD pass on a 30 yard drive and not the defense for bailing him out in the first place.... Using the 4th and 2 game as an argument against Manning is exactly the same as the time you tried to say that Manning was a liability in 2009 because of the Colts' point differential. You've completely missed the point. Do you want to know the reason WHY Belichik decided to go for it on 4th and 2 that game? Because he knew that if he punted the ball away to Manning the Colts were probably going to win the game. The Colts were down by 17 at multiple points in that game, including in the fourth quarter, and they were able to make up the deficit thanks in part to Manning. Again, Belicihik doesn't just magically decide to go for it on 4th and 2 for no reason. Manning had literally just led an 80 yard drive in under two minutes in their previous possession to score a touchdown. I also love how you try to argue that Faulk got the first down on the play, meaning the defense ultimately didn't do their job having been bailed out by a poor refereeing call, and then in the very next sentence you turn around and say that the defense bailed Manning out. Week 11 @ Baltimore (W 17-15): The Colts won the game on a 25 yard field goal from Matt Stover... with 7:02 left in the 4th quarter. The defense bailed out Manning once again by intercepting Joe Flacco deep in Indianapolis territory (at the Colts' 13 yard line to be exact) in a situation where a field goal would have given them the lead. The special teams then bailed out Manning by stripping Ed Reed on a punt return at Baltimore's 40 yard line with only 30 seconds left in the game. Manning threw for 1 TD and 2 INTs that game. His only touchdown came in the 1st quarter on a ridiculous 1 handed bobbling catch by Dallas Clark. Media narrative was "Peyton Manning leads Colts to 4th consecutive win by 4 points or less" I like that first argument you make. The defense bailed Manning out... by letting the Ravens drive into field goal position for what could have been a game winning field goal. Also I know you didn't watch the game but the Special Teams didn't "bail Manning out" by stripping Reed on the punt return. Reed lost the football trying to lateral. Again Manning also threw for 300 yards, while the combined ground forces of Addai and Donald Brown gathered a whopping 83 yards on 26 attempts. Sure this wasn't his greatest game but he was the only offense on the night, as was the case for most of the year. But again, I love how fun this "4 games a year" argument is. Let's apply it to your other MVP candidates for the season. Drew Brees: Week 3 vs Buffalo (W 27-7): The Saints rush for three touchdowns and the winning score comes from John Carney... with 4:12 left in the 2nd quarter. Brees throws for 172 yards on 29 attempts with no touchdowns for a 72.8 passer rating, and the Saints still blow the Bills out. Week 4 vs New York Jets (W 24-10): The Saints scores' came from a Pierre Thomas run and two defensive touchdowns. Brees throws for 190 yards with no touchdowns or interceptions and the Saints still handle the Jets. Week 6 @ Miami (W 46-34): Brees throws for 1 touchdown and 3 interceptions and a 58.9 passer rating. The Saints defense bails him out by returning two interceptions back for touchdowns. The winning score came from a run with... 8:35 left in the 4th quarter. Week 15 vs Dallas (L 17-24): The Saints won the game on... no play, because Brees turns the ball over with 12 seconds left at the Dallas 42 yard line. Brees throws 1 touchdown and 1 interception in a game where a win would have clinched the #1 seed in the NFC. Favre and Johnson also have absolutely on business being in the conversation. CJ was a running back on an 8 win team that missed the playoffs. Favre was on the most stacked team in the NFL and still racked up losses when it mattered most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footbull3196 Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 1 hour ago, rich homie said: I hate when people do this, where you can see the bigger picture but you just willfully ignore the parts to produce an argument that can support the conclusion you arrived to before you had even gathered the evidence. In 2008, he was clearly injured the first half of the year, and we saw how that affected the Colts. At 3-4 they just were not playing like a playoff team, let alone a Super Bowl contender. Then he went ahead and won 23 consecutive regular season games, torching some great defenses along the way. Oh boy, a Manning apologist. Here we go again. No surprise you're going to be incredibly biased in this matter since you're a Colts fan. I thought these debates had ended a decade ago but I guess I was wrong. No, this isnt a conclusion I arrived at before gathering the evidence, this is a conclusion I arrived at from having gathered the evidence. I wouldnt have drawn a conclusion or been able to without evidence to support it Yeah, Manning had some great games in 2008. He also barely beat the Tavaris Jackson led Vikings, Rosencopter led Texans, Matt Cassel led Patriots, Derek Anderson led Patriots, and the Dan Orlovsky 0-16 Lions (yes, that last one was technically a 10 point win, but the Lions kept it close throughout and it was actually tied at one point in the 4th quarter and ultimately a 1 possession game until Vinatieri's field goal with less than 40 seconds left officially put the game out of reach). Whos really ignoring the bigger picture here? Quote To say that the streak "wasn't even enough to win the division" is sooo disingenuous that its actually a little bit disgusting. The only reason it wasn't enough to win the division was because the Titans went 13-3 that year. Manning led the Colts to the second best record in the NFL, the one team that was in that division just happened to have the best record. I'm sure you knew that and to present it like its a negative is a big reflection on your post and the argument you make. They werent the only team at 12-4 that year, there were 3 other teams that finished with the same record. Let's take a look at their point differentials in descending order to figure out which one was really the strongest of them all: 12-4 Giants - 427-294 (+133) 12-4 Steelers - 347-223 (+124) 12-4 Panthers - 414-329 (+85) 12-4 Colts - 377-298 (+79) The Colts that year were such a weak 12-4 team that it's hard to even put stock into their record when they lost to an 8-8 team in the wild card round of the playoffs. They were weaker than the 12-4 Panthers led by Jake Delhomme that got pummeled by a 9-7 Cardinals team at home in the divisional round. During their first 8 wins of their 9 game win streak to end the season (because let's be honest, the final game of the season against the 13-2 Titans that had already clinched everything counts for absolutely nothing here), the Colts beat 8 teams with a combined 52-75-1 record on the season (or an average of a 6-10/7-9 record, including only 2 teams over .500) by a total of 69 points (or an average of 8.6 points a game, just over 1 possession) But yeah, that screams MVP.... Quote As for 2009, yeah he threw 16 interceptions, but he still had less turnovers than Brees that year. Also the idea that the defense bailed him out is just so ridiculous that its hard to counter. This is the most egregious part, when you said "His defense bailed him out time after time after time that year as evidenced by the 416-307 point differential (which is more indicative of a 10-6 / 11-5 team than a 14-2 team)" Do you not see the glaring stupidity of that argument? Essentially that statement says that the Colts had the talent of a 10-6 team that for whatever reason, won 14 games that year. Now the simple answer to that little disparity is that Peyton Manning is a great quarterback who was able to lead his team to more victories than was expected of him and them. What you're implying however, is that Peyton Manning was such a terrible quarterback that he was holding back a historic 16-0 capable defense with his terrible play that they only finished 14-2. I would advise you to think about that again for a little while. No, the basis of the argument is not that Manning was holding back the team. The basis of the argument is that he was not carrying them like the media (and apparently you) is claiming. The answer is not that Manning was the reason for the victories. The answer is that the defense stepped up at critical moments and played much better than they got credit for from anyone that season. The answer is that Manning's style of play that season simply was not sustainable over a long term period in most seasons, because they would not have won as many games by 4 points or less under normal circumstances. The Colts had some incredible luck that year and teams that play in close games almost always tend to regress to the mean the following season. It happened again in 2010 when the Colts started off 6-6 before reeling off a 4 game winning streak to sneak into the playoffs before going one and done for the 3rd time in 4 years and the 4th time in 6 years Quote Now lets look through the four games you think that defined Peyton Manning's 2009 season. Never mind you leaving out his 15 minute win in Miami or the conference clincher in Jacksonville but okay: You mean the games where Chad Pennington threw an interception in the end zone as time expired or where David Garrard threw an interception with just over a minute left? I agree that Manning should be given a good amount credit for pulling those wins out given the circumstances (particularly in the Miami game where he orchestrated one of the most efficient air attacks in a single game I've seen), but you're giving the defense almost no credit at all for actually doing their job when they needed to, multiple times over the course of the season Quote Week 8 vs SF (W 18-14): Joseph Addai threw a game winning 22 yard TD to Reggie Wayne... with 14:53 left in the 4th quarter. Manning threw no TDs that game. Media narrative was "Peyton leads Colts to 7-0 start for 4th time in career" Everyone and their mother acknowledged that that was Peyton's worst game of the season. I'm not sure what media you take in but absolutely nobody was praising Peyton after that performance. I would hope so, because any other point of view just sounds delusional Quote Week 9 vs Hou (W 20-17): Joseph Addai scored the game winning 2 yard TD run... with 7:11 left in the 4th quarter. Kris Brown missed a 52 yard field goal as time expired that would have sent it to overtime (and this was the season that Brown totally fell apart down the stretch). Manning threw 1 TD and 1 INT that game. Media narrative was "Peyton leads Colts to third 4th quarter come from behind win of the season" Manning threw 318 yards on 50 attempts that game. Addai ran for 63 yards on 14 attempts. If you want to claim that Addai led the Colts to that win then go ahead but I'm not so sure the facts agree with you. I never once claimed that Joseph Addai led the Colts to the win just because he scored a 2 yard touchdown midway through the 4th quarter. Hey, remember when Manning threw that critical interception deep in Houston territory near the end of the first half that let the Texans back into the game? Yeah, me neither Quote Week 10 vs NE (W 35-34): Bill Belichick went for it on 4th and 2 from his own 30... and barely failed due to a ruling that while Kevin Faulk did catch the ball, he did not earn forward progress due to the fact that the ball was juggled. It didn't matter that he was able to control it at the 30 yard line, where the first down was, it mattered that he was pushed back half a yard, which is ultimately where they marked the ball. Manning had the game given to him and only had to drive 30 yards for a game winning touchdown that he never should have had the opportunity for in the first place. But yeah, he was the clutch one for throwing a game winning 1 yard TD pass on a 30 yard drive and not the defense for bailing him out in the first place.... Using the 4th and 2 game as an argument against Manning is exactly the same as the time you tried to say that Manning was a liability in 2009 because of the Colts' point differential. You've completely missed the point. Do you want to know the reason WHY Belichik decided to go for it on 4th and 2 that game? Because he knew that if he punted the ball away to Manning the Colts were probably going to win the game. The Colts were down by 17 at multiple points in that game, including in the fourth quarter, and they were able to make up the deficit thanks in part to Manning. Again, Belicihik doesn't just magically decide to go for it on 4th and 2 for no reason. Manning had literally just led an 80 yard drive in under two minutes in their previous possession to score a touchdown. I also love how you try to argue that Faulk got the first down on the play, meaning the defense ultimately didn't do their job having been bailed out by a poor refereeing call, and then in the very next sentence you turn around and say that the defense bailed Manning out. He also threw 2 INTs in the 2nd half while they were trailing and trying to get back into the game in the first place, both of which led to a Patriots touchdown and a field goal. One of them was in the 4th quarter after they had actually managed to stop the Patriots defensively that led to the significant deficit in the first place. But of course those are going to get conveniently glossed over What does it matter if the defense bailed Manning out or the referees did by ruling that Faulk was short of the first down? Either way, the point remains that he got bailed out and had an incredibly short field to work with. It's not like he led them on an 80 yard drive to win the game, maybe I'd be more inclined to give him credit if he had Quote Week 11 @ Baltimore (W 17-15): The Colts won the game on a 25 yard field goal from Matt Stover... with 7:02 left in the 4th quarter. The defense bailed out Manning once again by intercepting Joe Flacco deep in Indianapolis territory (at the Colts' 13 yard line to be exact) in a situation where a field goal would have given them the lead. The special teams then bailed out Manning by stripping Ed Reed on a punt return at Baltimore's 40 yard line with only 30 seconds left in the game. Manning threw for 1 TD and 2 INTs that game. His only touchdown came in the 1st quarter on a ridiculous 1 handed bobbling catch by Dallas Clark. Media narrative was "Peyton Manning leads Colts to 4th consecutive win by 4 points or less" I like that first argument you make. The defense bailed Manning out... by letting the Ravens drive into field goal position for what could have been a game winning field goal. Also I know you didn't watch the game but the Special Teams didn't "bail Manning out" by stripping Reed on the punt return. Reed lost the football trying to lateral. Again Manning also threw for 300 yards, while the combined ground forces of Addai and Donald Brown gathered a whopping 83 yards on 26 attempts. Sure this wasn't his greatest game but he was the only offense on the night, as was the case for most of the year. Yes, the defense absolutely bailed Manning out by stepping up and making a turnover when it mattered most. It doesnt matter that they let the Ravens drive into field goal position when they didnt actually surrender the field goal because they took the ball away from them. It's called bend don't break. I actually forgot that Reed tried to lateral the ball on that punt return, that's on him for trying too hard to making something happen. And even if Manning was the only offense in that game, he led them to only 17 points total Quote But again, I love how fun this "4 games a year" argument is. Let's apply it to your other MVP candidates for the season. Drew Brees: Week 3 vs Buffalo (W 27-7): The Saints rush for three touchdowns and the winning score comes from John Carney... with 4:12 left in the 2nd quarter. Brees throws for 172 yards on 29 attempts with no touchdowns for a 72.8 passer rating, and the Saints still blow the Bills out. Week 4 vs New York Jets (W 24-10): The Saints scores' came from a Pierre Thomas run and two defensive touchdowns. Brees throws for 190 yards with no touchdowns or interceptions and the Saints still handle the Jets. Week 6 @ Miami (W 46-34): Brees throws for 1 touchdown and 3 interceptions and a 58.9 passer rating. The Saints defense bails him out by returning two interceptions back for touchdowns. The winning score came from a run with... 8:35 left in the 4th quarter. Week 15 vs Dallas (L 17-24): The Saints won the game on... no play, because Brees turns the ball over with 12 seconds left at the Dallas 42 yard line. Brees throws 1 touchdown and 1 interception in a game where a win would have clinched the #1 seed in the NFC. Favre and Johnson also have absolutely on business being in the conversation. CJ was a running back on an 8 win team that missed the playoffs. Favre was on the most stacked team in the NFL and still racked up losses when it mattered most. The 4 games of your choice narrative doesnt apply in the same way to the games you've chosen for Brees because none of those were even close games that he was lucky to squeak by in. I'll give you the Dolphins game as the game where the team bailed him out. If you wanted to choose a more appropriate game to say that Brees got bailed out in, choose the game against the Redskins. The Skins basically played a perfect game and still lost in the end because of a Robert Meachem strip and fumble return off of an interception that Brees threw, Shaun Suisham missing a 23 yard field goal that would have almost certainly iced it, and a questionable fumble call in overtime Still, hard to argue that Manning deserved MVP over Brees when Brees threw more TDs, less INTs, averaged over half a yard more per pass attempt, set an NFL record (at the time) for highest completion % in a season, and had a passer rating that was 10 points higher. The Saints 510-341 point differential was much more indicative of how strong of a team they were with Brees at the helm as compared to the Colts 416-307 differential with Manning despite having 1 more win in the regular season. The Saints blew out the 11-5 Eagles on the road and the same Patriots that the Colts struggled with all game long at home and trailed until the final minute. The Colts only blowouts came against the 10-6 Cardinals (who were a pretty good team, but somewhat flawed defensively), the Kerry Collins led Titans (who were in the midst of an 0-6 start), and the 1-15 Rams. They had some impressive wins over the stretch, but none that I believe deserved to skew the MVP voting in Manning's favor as much as it inevitably did. And I dont really need to remind you of what happened in the Super Bowl, even if the Saints did have to basically play a perfect game and recover a surprise onside kick in order to have the lead heading into the final stretch of the 4th quarter before Manning ultimately threw the pass that decided the game to the other team Also, how did Favre have no business being in the MVP conversation when he threw 33 TDs to only 7 INTs at age 40 after missing the majority of the offseason and leading the Vikings to a 12-4 record (with a 470-312 point differential I might add)? His final pass was an awful one, and as a Vikings fan I will never forgive him for that, but up until that point he had an incredible season and took a Vikings team that had won the division the previous season almost solely due to their running game and defensive play to the next level. He made Sidney Rice into a 1300 yard receiver Pro Bowler, and Rice was never near that level again after Favre left. Chris Johnson was at a higher positional ranking for his position than Manning was for his (in my opinion at least, though I'm sure you would put Manning at #1 unquestionably given your prevalent biases in this topic). I wouldnt have personally voted for Johnson as MVP either, but my point is that he had a good enough season to at least be considered It just makes absolutely no sense to defend Manning's 2008 and 2009 MVPs to no end like you've done in this thread. It's pretty apparent that there were several more deserving candidates in both seasons (maybe to a bit of a lesser extent in 08), and I think that if you were looking at this from an objective standpoint and not from a subjective standpoint of being a Colts fan and a Manning rider, you would agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich homie Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 I think the difference between us is that I can acknowledge my biases. Yeah I'm a Colts fan, I'm naturally going to be biased toward my favorite players, but I can overlook that and see the bigger picture here. I might be biased, but you're pegging square pegs into round holes to reach your conclusion. Let's start dismantling your arguments. Quote Yeah, Manning had some great games in 2008. He also barely beat the Tavaris Jackson led Vikings, Rosencopter led Texans, Matt Cassel led Patriots, Derek Anderson led Patriots, and the Dan Orlovsky 0-16 Lions (yes, that last one was technically a 10 point win, but the Lions kept it close throughout and it was actually tied at one point in the 4th quarter and ultimately a 1 possession game until Vinatieri's field goal with less than 40 seconds left officially put the game out of reach). Whos really ignoring the bigger picture here? No the Colts barely beat these teams, not just Manning. First off the Vikings and Patriots were very good teams that year (partly why Brett Favre doesn't get the nod the year after) but also the fact that the Colts struggled against these teams should tell you something about the Colts as a team, not just Manning. You're still the one ignoring the bigger picture here. Quote They werent the only team at 12-4 that year, there were 3 other teams that finished with the same record. Let's take a look at their point differentials in descending order to figure out which one was really the strongest of them all: 12-4 Giants - 427-294 (+133) 12-4 Steelers - 347-223 (+124) 12-4 Panthers - 414-329 (+85) 12-4 Colts - 377-298 (+79) The Colts that year were such a weak 12-4 team that it's hard to even put stock into their record when they lost to an 8-8 team in the wild card round of the playoffs. They were weaker than the 12-4 Panthers led by Jake Delhomme that got pummeled by a 9-7 Cardinals team at home in the divisional round. During their first 8 wins of their 9 game win streak to end the season (because let's be honest, the final game of the season against the 13-2 Titans that had already clinched everything counts for absolutely nothing here), the Colts beat 8 teams with a combined 52-75-1 record on the season (or an average of a 6-10/7-9 record, including only 2 teams over .500) by a total of 69 points (or an average of 8.6 points a game, just over 1 possession) But yeah, that screams MVP.... Your logic is working backwards again. Here's yet another square peg in a round hole. The fact that the Colts had such a low point differential is a point in FAVOR of Manning. They were not as good as their record indicated, yet they still got the second best record in the league. Why? Because of Peyton Manning. Yeah, that does scream MVP. By the way, if this disqualifies Manning from MVP, who should have won that year? Rivers led an actual 8-8 team and if 12-4 isn't a good enough record for MVP then you must think it should be Kerry Collins? Quote No, the basis of the argument is not that Manning was holding back the team. The basis of the argument is that he was not carrying them like the media (and apparently you) is claiming. The answer is not that Manning was the reason for the victories. The answer is that the defense stepped up at critical moments and played much better than they got credit for from anyone that season. The answer is that Manning's style of play that season simply was not sustainable over a long term period in most seasons, because they would not have won as many games by 4 points or less under normal circumstances. The Colts had some incredible luck that year and teams that play in close games almost always tend to regress to the mean the following season. It happened again in 2010 when the Colts started off 6-6 before reeling off a 4 game winning streak to sneak into the playoffs before going one and done for the 3rd time in 4 years and the 4th time in 6 years I'm not even sure where to start with this. "Peyton Manning isn't good, he was just lucky" is a take that I never thought I would hear in my life. You honestly and actually believe that the 2009 Colts were carried by their defense. How you think Manning's style of play was unsustainable when he pretty much based his career and his legacy on willing the Colts to win games out of nothing is beyond me. Quote You mean the games where Chad Pennington threw an interception in the end zone as time expired or where David Garrard threw an interception with just over a minute left? This is a great little representation of your argument. Here you can pick out a game where the Dolphins had 8 drives all game longending with touchdown, punt, field goal, missed field goal, touchdown, field goal, and interception, and then try and frame it in a way where the last second hail mary interception was a triumph of the defense. I also like how you specifically phrased that Pennington threw the INT as time expired in the end zone, implying that he had driven down the field and the defense made a clutch play on something that could have reasonably expected to be a touchdown, not a desperation hail mary from the quarterback with the weakest arm the league has ever seen. "Doing their job when they needed to" my ***. That defense allowed the Dolphins to run all over them, giving up 45 minutes of time of possession and only forcing one punt the entire game. I have to go to work, so I'll respond to the rest of your arguments later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 I felt at the time and in retrospect 2008 and 2009 were down years in the AFC period Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlowe22 Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 11 hours ago, rich homie said: IWeek 6 @ Miami (W 46-34): Brees throws for 1 touchdown and 3 interceptions and a 58.9 passer rating. The Saints defense bails him out by returning two interceptions back for touchdowns. The winning score came from a run with... 8:35 left in the 4th quarter. Brees had a terrible first half, but ended the half with a rushing TD. And came out in the second half with 200 more yards passing, a TD, and 8:35 TD was a rush TD by Brees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlowe22 Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 37 minutes ago, CP3MVP said: I felt at the time and in retrospect 2008 and 2009 were down years in the AFC period Well Brady was hurt in 2008, and the Patriots weren't that good in 2009. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 26 minutes ago, Jlowe22 said: Well Brady was hurt in 2008, and the Patriots weren't that good in 2009. Yeah but 2008 was a weak year for the nfl period. 2 9 win teams played in a conference title game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breesus mode Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 I wouldn't use the 4th and 2 game as a point in the column for Manning considering the Saints curb stomped the Pats so badly Brady got benched in the 4th quarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patriotsheatyan Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 Definitely: 04, 13 Potentially: 03, 05, 06, 08, 09, 12 When it comes down to it though, most MVP seasons can be criticized as only being won because of a down year, or only being because of team success, or media narrative being driven by bias or inaccuracies. Then there are times where the media wants to give someone a lifetime achievement award, or want to give it to an underdog, or give it to whoever was hottest in the second half of the season while ignoring the first. People also try to rework things around postseason results after the fact, while ignoring that it is a regular season award. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footbull3196 Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 1 hour ago, rich homie said: I think the difference between us is that I can acknowledge my biases. Yeah I'm a Colts fan, I'm naturally going to be biased toward my favorite players, but I can overlook that and see the bigger picture here. I might be biased, but you're pegging square pegs into round holes to reach your conclusion. Let's start dismantling your arguments. No the Colts barely beat these teams, not just Manning. First off the Vikings and Patriots were very good teams that year (partly why Brett Favre doesn't get the nod the year after) but also the fact that the Colts struggled against these teams should tell you something about the Colts as a team, not just Manning. You're still the one ignoring the bigger picture here. Dude, I'm biased TOWARDS Manning. And even I have to admit that his 2008 and 2009 MVPs were ridiculous. The fact remains that Manning simply didnt play very well for the majority of either the Vikings or Patriots games. It wasnt just the team that got them into a 15-0 hole against Minnesota, it was Manning's 2 INTs and lack of ability to move the ball consistently for almost 3 quarters. Yes, he pulled out the come from behind win in the end over a team that I would consider to be very good as well, so I'll give him credit. He doesnt deserve the totality of the credit like you're making it seem. The Colts held the Vikings to 5 field goals, including 2 of under 30 yards or less, despite being gashed for 160 yards by Adrian Peterson. Against the Patriots, I would say he played pretty well in general. Still, the Colts held the Patriots to only 1 touchdown and 3 field goals despite being outgained in yards Either way, those were only 2 of the 5 games I mentioned. The point remains that he had some pretty weak wins over mediocre competition, not something that myself or others would necessarily consider to be MVP worthy Quote Your logic is working backwards again. Here's yet another square peg in a round hole. The fact that the Colts had such a low point differential is a point in FAVOR of Manning. They were not as good as their record indicated, yet they still got the second best record in the league. Why? Because of Peyton Manning. Yeah, that does scream MVP. By the way, if this disqualifies Manning from MVP, who should have won that year? Rivers led an actual 8-8 team and if 12-4 isn't a good enough record for MVP then you must think it should be Kerry Collins? You're choosing to look at it from the perspective of "The Colts had a lot of close victories over mediocre teams, therefore the rest of the team wasnt as good as their record indicated and Manning was the only reason they won those games so deserved the MVP". I'm looking at it from the perspective of "The Colts had lots of close victories over mediocre teams, therefore Manning wasnt the main reason they won those games". Once again, give some credit to the defense that ranked 11th in total yards allowed per game and actually ranked 6th in passing yards allowed per game, as well as 7th in scoring defense. This was without the previous year's DPOY Bob Sanders for 10 games as well. It's so annoying to see you continually throw the rest of the team under the bus in order to give as much credit as possible to Manning. I wish I could say I was surprised by this though What about Michael Turner? The real leader of an 11-5 team that had no true defensive strong points outside of John Abraham and a rookie Matt Ryan at quarterback. The guy who put the Falcons on his back with 1700 yards and 17 TDs. Pretty sure he had a stronger case for MVP than Manning regardless of what position he played Quote I'm not even sure where to start with this. "Peyton Manning isn't good, he was just lucky" is a take that I never thought I would hear in my life. You honestly and actually believe that the 2009 Colts were carried by their defense. How you think Manning's style of play was unsustainable when he pretty much based his career and his legacy on willing the Colts to win games out of nothing is beyond me. I never said they were carried by their defense. I said that the defense deserved much more credit than they got that season for bailing him out multiple times in games where he just flat out did not play all that well. You're just twisting my words to support your narrative that Peyton Manning deserves all the credit for every win the Colts had that year. I'm just not sure how you think that winning tons of close games over and over again is a sustainable style of play in the long run. History has shown repeatedly that's not the case Quote This is a great little representation of your argument. Here you can pick out a game where the Dolphins had 8 drives all game longending with touchdown, punt, field goal, missed field goal, touchdown, field goal, and interception, and then try and frame it in a way where the last second hail mary interception was a triumph of the defense. I also like how you specifically phrased that Pennington threw the INT as time expired in the end zone, implying that he had driven down the field and the defense made a clutch play on something that could have reasonably expected to be a touchdown, not a desperation hail mary from the quarterback with the weakest arm the league has ever seen. "Doing their job when they needed to" my ***. That defense allowed the Dolphins to run all over them, giving up 45 minutes of time of possession and only forcing one punt the entire game. I'm not saying that Manning shouldn't be given credit for pulling out that win. Look at my post again. This was specifically a game where I thought he deserved credit for leading an extremely efficient air attack. You dont go 14/23 for 303 with 2 TDs 0 INTs otherwise. Yes, he was absolutely a big part of the reason they won that game. All I'm trying to say is give some credit to the defense too for stepping up and making plays when they needed to. They entered the halfway point of the season as the #1 scoring defense in the league. That wasnt by accident. You keep trying to say that the defense was some horrible unit that Manning carried all season long, but in reality, they weren't a bottom feeder, they were right in the middle of the pack in terms of total yards and passing yards allowed and actually in the top 10 in terms of rushing defense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 In '09 he absolutely stole it from Brees. You could make a solid argument in favor of him winning all the other seasons, but '09 he was definitely not deserving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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