We need another CB!

[Chieferific]

I'd say Allen's potential and CURRENT ability trumps a lot of teams' #5 CB. 

[Ward4HOF]

6 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said:

I mean....Ill take anything at this point, but elite?   Even at his best, I never felt like Haden was elite.   The last 2-3 years, he has been pretty meh.....although he has been injured alot.

Im okay with the signing because he should be easy to cut next offseason if he doesnt pan out, but I dont really have notably high hopes.    Still, its probably the best we couldve hoped for at this point.  

You don't ever feel as if he was an elite corner? I mean, now?  No, of course not, but 3-4 years ago, he was a top 3-5 CB in the league, and while that doesn't make you 'elite' per se, didn't he have something like 13 INTs in his 1st 3 seasons, or something like that...I don't remember exactly, but anyway, maybe 'elite' is too high of a standard to use for him, but he was definitely atop the position rankings for a couple of years (meaning, top 3-5 in the league). If he can even get back to being a top 20 CB in the league for a couple of years, this signing will have been worth it.

 

[Dcash4]

2 hours ago, CKSteeler said:

Gay has played special teams in the past and has been getting reps there in camp as well as at safety. Which tells me the team is considering the switch.

Gay has played 227 snaps in the last three years. Only 35 of them came last year. Only 3 ST snaps after week 8. That's a guy getting removed from ST units.  He may HAVE played special teams in the past. But he does not now. Now is what matters. 

Golden has 718 ST snaps under his belt within that time frame (had he not gotten hurt last year, it would be more) and has been the ST captain for the last three years. Gay is no where near the special teams asset that Golden has been, and when you talk about DEPTH on an NFL 46 man game day roster -- if Gay is not playing on defense he holds no value. Even inside of package play, if that's all Gay would be, how often would he be on the field? 10 plays in a dime, maybe 15. Is that worth the hat on Sundays when he doesn't help anywhere else?

Coverage has been Golden's issue -- not tackling. So Gay will need to be a much better player within coverage to have so big of an edge over Golden's roster spot. I don't believe he can do that. Again, I dont care if Golden doesnt make the roster, but it damn sure better be someone other than Gay taking that spot.

[CKSteeler]

You are going to compare the special teams snaps of a 31/32 year old CB who was basically starting throughout the year to those of a 26 guy who lost his job on defense after a few weeks? You don't see a problem there? It's not that Gay can't play special teams. It's that it made less sense to do so. Gay has played special teams throughout his career and has gotten reps there in camp for a reason. And repeatedly in the past when the team needed to improve special teams play, Gay is one of the guys from defense they pushed out onto the unit to accomplish that. With Golden, we aren't talking about some guy making Pro Bowls for his special teams contributions. We aren't talking about a standout on some great unit. Of the guys I'm keeping for special teams play alone, he might not even crack the top 3. The team missed DHB on special teams far more than it ever would Golden.

Golden's issues aren't just as simple as coverage. The guy can't even be where he's supposed to be. There's a reason why 31/32 year old Gay was used more on defense last year and it's because he's simply better. Gay would do a better job with the limited snaps Golden gets on defense in packages. And Golden is nothing but a liability as a pure safety. He was the worst player they had back there since Ryan Mundy.

[trbst11]

TJ Ward may be released. Thoughts on signing him?  Do we have any cap room? 

[CKSteeler]

Overthecap.com has the Steelers at roughly $10m in cap space before Haden. So that would put them about where they typically are before the start of the season. With the hopeful Tuitt extension coming, I don't think there's room for a guy like Ward.

[warfelg]

1 hour ago, Dcash4 said:

Gay has played 227 snaps in the last three years. Only 35 of them came last year. Only 3 ST snaps after week 8. That's a guy getting removed from ST units.  He may HAVE played special teams in the past. But he does not now. Now is what matters. 

Golden has 718 ST snaps under his belt within that time frame (had he not gotten hurt last year, it would be more) and has been the ST captain for the last three years. Gay is no where near the special teams asset that Golden has been, and when you talk about DEPTH on an NFL 46 man game day roster -- if Gay is not playing on defense he holds no value. Even inside of package play, if that's all Gay would be, how often would he be on the field? 10 plays in a dime, maybe 15. Is that worth the hat on Sundays when he doesn't help anywhere else?

Coverage has been Golden's issue -- not tackling. So Gay will need to be a much better player within coverage to have so big of an edge over Golden's roster spot. I don't believe he can do that. Again, I dont care if Golden doesnt make the roster, but it damn sure better be someone other than Gay taking that spot.

Not only that Gay's ST snaps are typically FG block units coming off the edge. 

[Dcash4]

47 minutes ago, CKSteeler said:

It's not that Gay can't play special teams. It's that it made less sense to do so. Gay has played special teams throughout his career and has gotten reps there in camp for a reason. And repeatedly in the past when the team needed to improve special teams play, Gay is one of the guys from defense they pushed out onto the unit to accomplish that.

Gay was REMOVED from special teams last year...he wasn't added. Our special teams wasn't great and we had few numbers due to injuries toward the end of the year..and they took Gay off. What does that tell you about his abilities on those units?

And so far this preseason-- Gay has 2 special teams snaps...these are not ringing endorsements. Golden's snap count: 22. Which one do you think the coaches view as a special teams player?

Golden is a replacement level player. In the NFL on active rosters, replacement players offer potential or special teams ability.  I would love a better backup...but what does Gay offer in terms of getting a helmet on Sundays if he is not the starting slot compared to what Golden would offer as a backup safety? You can tell me Golden is cutting cut, just dont tell me its because of Gay, because its not. 

[CKSteeler]

Gay = 32 and playing 80% of the defensive snaps throughout the year. They took Gay off later in the year? I'll take your word for it as I don't know what weeks he played on them and didn't. I know he was out there last year at that age. I know the special teams got banged up in the middle of the season. You are assuming you know the reason why the coaches distributed snaps the way they did.

Golden = 26 and playing 36% of the defensive snaps. And all 25% of the special teams snaps. The same percentage as Justin Gilbert of all people. Obviously, that doesn't tell the whole story.

The preseason snap counts are even more meaningless. The coaches and everyone already knows what they're getting from Gay. The guy has been in the league since 2008. He's old. Why the hell would they force him out there during the preseason when the goal is to get an extended look at things you are trying to figure out?

I don't know if Golden is going to be cut. But there's more than a good case for doing so and the best evidence we have indicates the coaches are actually considering it when they are trying Gay out in the role Golden has in the defense in practice.

Gay is still the better football player and can do just about everything Golden does and most of it better.

[Dcash4]

44 minutes ago, CKSteeler said:

Gay = 32 and playing 80% of the defensive snaps throughout the year. They took Gay off later in the year? I'll take your word for it as I don't know what weeks he played on them and didn't. I know he was out there last year at that age. I know the special teams got banged up in the middle of the season. You are assuming you know the reason why the coaches distributed snaps the way they did.

You dont need to take my word for it. Its a quick google search away. Gay played 3 total ST snaps from week 7 through week 16 last year. And actually something I didnt notice until after, his defensive snaps took a great hit after week 7 as well. Weeks 1 through 7 98% or higher in all games in terms of defensive snaps. Weeks 8 through 16 - 54%, 53%, 76%, 55%, 90%, 65%, 79%, 61% and 66%. Funny, that our special teams got better when he was removed from the units and our defense improved late in the season when we say less Willie Gay. Doesnt seem like a guy they are looking forward to getting more snaps. Especially because he is a main reason we couldnt play man at any point last year. 

 

1 hour ago, CKSteeler said:

Golden = 26 and playing 36% of the defensive snaps. And all 25% of the special teams snaps. The same percentage as Justin Gilbert of all people. Obviously, that doesn't tell the whole story.

Full story is the hamstring injury in the middle of the year took him off some snaps and out of 3 games. The years before, when he was fully healthy,  ST snaps on the year - 2015: 69% (highest on the team), 2014: 62% (second highest on the team), 2013: - 50%.

And Justin Gilbert is a good point. He was strictly on the team for special teams -- something that's necessary from backup players, and his snaps are not here any more. Roster moves this year could greatly impact the units from last year. DHB could be cut, Sammie Coates isnt a lock, Toussaint was 3rd on the team in ST snaps and is most likely cut, Shamarko is gone and guys like Vince Williams, Burns, and Davis all had high ST snap counts last year and will most likely see those drop due to their elevation and importance to the defense. That's 1281 snaps that could be affected.

That's a lot of snaps to disappear on ST units. Guys are going to have to step up further down the depth chart...where Willie Gay is.

1 hour ago, CKSteeler said:

The preseason snap counts are even more meaningless. The coaches and everyone already knows what they're getting from Gay. The guy has been in the league since 2008. He's old. Why the hell would they force him out there during the preseason when the goal is to get an extended look at things you are trying to figure out

You mentioned earlier that he was getting work on special teams. If he was getting work, I would expect him to get work in actual game situations with first units. Moates is a guy that they already know what they have in -- he still played 12 ST snaps last week. Moats is fighting for a job and showing his worth as a backup by playing special teams. Gay is in a fight with age and 4 other players on the roster that can play the slot (and also play man)...and he got 2.

They do know who he is -- the guy that they removed last year from ST and took less defensive snaps in the second half (both units improved in the second half BTW). They are trying to replace him, not find more uses for him. 

1 hour ago, CKSteeler said:

But there's more than a good case for doing so and the best evidence we have indicates the coaches are actually considering it when they are trying Gay out in the role Golden has in the defense in practice.

They could literally just be doing this to figure out if Gay offers anything to this roster. Not a special teamer. Only plays the slot. Only plays zone. Has no future. These are not the makings of a depth player. I dont believe (though I could be wrong) that we ever saw Gay play FS during a preseason game. I cant believe they would cut a backup safety and give the job to Gay on a hunch that he could handle it. He either isnt really an replacement - rather a emergency option - or its a last ditch effort to see what his value is to the roster. 

[warfelg]

How I view this last 6 months:

FANS: Whhhaaaaa, we need another cornerback!!!!  Ross Cockrell plays like the first syllable of his last name, Willie Gay is over the hill!!!  Wahhhhhhhhhh.

COLBERT: Here's Joe Haden, he's had 2 down years but here still really good.

FANS: Yey, but we don't want him.

FANS: Noooo, we can't loose Willie Gay or Ross Cockrell, they're good, they are smart, they offer things, our secondary was better with them!

 

Seriously, be happy you got another corner and shut it over who gets cut.

[Displayname]

I like the move, he has had his battle with injuries over the last few seasons, I'd take the shot of a potential when healthy over cockrell and gay. I also like the approach. Starting him at the top and let his play put him in his position. Seems really respectful. The heat cockrell has felt towards tomlin and fans, I don't think it can get much worst then what he has shown. Hopefully, I'm not proven wrong

[43M]

2 hours ago, warfelg said:

How I view this last 6 months:

FANS: Whhhaaaaa, we need another cornerback!!!!  Ross Cockrell plays like the first syllable of his last name, Willie Gay is over the hill!!!  Wahhhhhhhhhh.

COLBERT: Here's Joe Haden, he's had 2 down years but here still really good.

FANS: Yey, but we don't want him.

FANS: Noooo, we can't loose Willie Gay or Ross Cockrell, they're good, they are smart, they offer things, our secondary was better with them!

 

Seriously, be happy you got another corner and shut it over who gets cut.

Haha.

I am mostly neutral on Haden.   I am hoping for the best, but Im not head over heels because I feel he may be permanantly damaged.   Still, as I said....best we can hope for this late.

And my feelings on Gay and Cockrell havent changed.     I didnt care if they were cut or not, and I still dont.   I just didnt think we would bring anyone in that could push them off the roster....and Gay is kind of a "Tomlin guy".

[Chieferific]

Would Lane have been a better CB option? Would TJ Ward have made a bigger impact? Just curious where people stand.

[CKSteeler]

4 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

You dont need to take my word for it. Its a quick google search away. Gay played 3 total ST snaps from week 7 through week 16 last year. And actually something I didnt notice until after, his defensive snaps took a great hit after week 7 as well. Weeks 1 through 7 98% or higher in all games in terms of defensive snaps. Weeks 8 through 16 - 54%, 53%, 76%, 55%, 90%, 65%, 79%, 61% and 66%. Funny, that our special teams got better when he was removed from the units and our defense improved late in the season when we say less Willie Gay. Doesnt seem like a guy they are looking forward to getting more snaps. Especially because he is a main reason we couldnt play man at any point last year. 

 

Full story is the hamstring injury in the middle of the year took him off some snaps and out of 3 games. The years before, when he was fully healthy,  ST snaps on the year - 2015: 69% (highest on the team), 2014: 62% (second highest on the team), 2013: - 50%.

And Justin Gilbert is a good point. He was strictly on the team for special teams -- something that's necessary from backup players, and his snaps are not here any more. Roster moves this year could greatly impact the units from last year. DHB could be cut, Sammie Coates isnt a lock, Toussaint was 3rd on the team in ST snaps and is most likely cut, Shamarko is gone and guys like Vince Williams, Burns, and Davis all had high ST snap counts last year and will most likely see those drop due to their elevation and importance to the defense. That's 1281 snaps that could be affected.

That's a lot of snaps to disappear on ST units. Guys are going to have to step up further down the depth chart...where Willie Gay is.

You mentioned earlier that he was getting work on special teams. If he was getting work, I would expect him to get work in actual game situations with first units. Moates is a guy that they already know what they have in -- he still played 12 ST snaps last week. Moats is fighting for a job and showing his worth as a backup by playing special teams. Gay is in a fight with age and 4 other players on the roster that can play the slot (and also play man)...and he got 2.

They do know who he is -- the guy that they removed last year from ST and took less defensive snaps in the second half (both units improved in the second half BTW). They are trying to replace him, not find more uses for him. 

They could literally just be doing this to figure out if Gay offers anything to this roster. Not a special teamer. Only plays the slot. Only plays zone. Has no future. These are not the makings of a depth player. I dont believe (though I could be wrong) that we ever saw Gay play FS during a preseason game. I cant believe they would cut a backup safety and give the job to Gay on a hunch that he could handle it. He either isnt really an replacement - rather a emergency option - or its a last ditch effort to see what his value is to the roster. 

Just going to make this quick:

1. You want to argue the defense got better when it saw less of Gay when the reality is that those weeks correspond to, first off, Golden being benched for the most part. Shazier returned from injury. Burns was inserted into the starting line-up.

2. Gilbert was not on the team primarily for special teams. I don't know what else needs to be said. They traded for him and kept him around to see if they could turn a high pedigree guy into a player at corner. His best asset on special teams was always his return ability, and they barely used him in that capacity.

3. Your harping on snap counts for guys at the bottom of the roster is funny because there is always high turnover in that area. The job isn't so much about ability in most instances, but simple effort. If you can physically do the job on defense, you can play special teams if you want to. It's always the younger guys who take over and get the bulk of the snaps there, and many of them are the least physically gifted players on the roster. That's the point. Your argument is that Gay has somehow forgotten how to do it or that it requires some special unique physical gift that he lacks now that he's older despite his experience. Yet, it's quite clear that he was the better defensive player last year in the eyes of the coaching staff. Golden was an abject failure on defense that they gave up on as a starter and even as a role player. They were using a rookie safety in a multitude of roles last year because Golden failed so badly when pushed into a larger role. A larger role that led to reduced special teams snaps until he was forced to the bench (which was talked about last off-season). Gay is physically able to do his job better on defense, but can't do it on special teams. The argument here is a joke.

4. Moates snap counts - there are fewer bodies at his position and he's not as old. Period. The team has been incredibly thin at OLB throughout this preseason in terms of bodies.

5. I'd like to see the stats on the special teams (particularly coverage units, where this is most relevant) improving in the second half of the season. Because that's when they were missing DHB, Shamarko, and trotting out Coates with a busted up hand as gunners. It's not about Gay and it sure as hell isn't about Golden, but the coverage units certainly did not improve in the second half of the season.

So I'm done. Not so brief, I suppose. There's a lot of bull**** to counter there.

And this conversation does matter for the simple fact that those DB's see significant snaps and are probably going to be forced into larger roles at certain points in the  season. Gay is the better football player even as he's aged. He makes plays still. Important plays. Golden is a virtual ghost outside when he's screwing something up which he even does on special teams. He's not a developmental guy anymore, but a vet. Competing against another vet who is simply better at his job. He's not some gift to the special teams and he has no future on defense.