This team needs a 2nd round WR/TE/RB or equivalent FA

[JBURGE]

I don't agree with @Outpost31 in that we are paying Rodgers to give him sub-par talent. A 2nd round pick is cheap for 4 years. We shouldn't be PAYING free agents on offense a ton of money to come here.. save that for defense. I don't have a problem with spending a 2nd round pick on a WR. 

1st round picks for defense or OT, 2nd and later who cares

[CWood21]

1 minute ago, Outpost31 said:

I am always the voice of reason.  I am the most reasonable person here.  Really though, I have always thought that round 3 was the best spot to get a tight end, round 2 the best spot to get a WR. 

Says the one advocating Rodgers...but I digress.

1 minute ago, Outpost31 said:

As this team stands now, I am not okay with a receiver in round 2.  The benefit of a second round receiver in year one is not as good nor as promising as MVS/ESB in round two.

Tight end though... We do need a future investment there.  Free agency is going to be a present investment, I don't want to go there.  We've got that in Jimmy (who is going to make a lot of impatient fools look really, really, really stupid next year).  After next year though, Jimmy will be old reliable more than field-stretcher weapon. 

Invest in the third round TE now and give yourself 4-5 splash plays in two tight end sets out of him and about 10-14 more receptions in his rookie year.  In his second year, while Jimmy is playing the role of reliable veteran who knows where Rodgers wants him, that second year TE is going to be good for 8-9 splash plays and 30-40 receptions.  By year three of his career, you expect him to break out. 

Everything I preach on this site revolves around three principles: Patience, healthy cap, draft capital. 

Signing a free agent tight end when you just did that in each of the last three seasons completely kills healthy cap and patience. 
Drafting a future investment in the third round falls directly in line with those three principles.  Patiently wait for an athletic, not ready prospect to turn into a threat, keeps your cap healthy, and doesn't waste draft capital by using a first or second round pick.

First/second round picks you expect to start in year one.  That means for the Packers, first/second round picks this year should be at EDGE, OT, S.  Maybe IOL in round two if Bulaga is expected to remain at RT.

With Rodgers getting paid more than any other QB, we cannot waste more cap space on offense, and we have to expect him to lift up his teammates on that side of the ball. 

The only places we should look on offense in free agency is in extreme bargains for receivers who want to play with Rodgers and are willing to take a discount to do it.

Value would have be insane for me to take a WR in the 2nd round.  I like what we have from ESB and MVS, and we drafted J'Mon Moore in the 4th round and I want to see what we have in him.  Adding a cheap veteran WR (Tyrell Williams, JJ Nelson, etc.) wouldn't be a bad get, but in terms of spending any legitimate money, I'm going to be disappointed.

As for TE, there's no reason to spend money.  There's no reason to spend much more money given the investment in Jimmy Graham.  And even if we release him, the Packers aren't going to get better production out of the FA class.  And we've discussed ad nauseam that first year rookie TEs usually don't produce.

[MacReady]

Just now, JBURGE said:

I don't agree with @Outpost31 in that we are paying Rodgers to give him sub-par talent. A 2nd round pick is cheap for 4 years. We shouldn't be PAYING free agents on offense a ton of money to come here.. save that for defense. I don't have a problem with spending a 2nd round pick on a WR. 

1st round picks for defense or OT, 2nd and later who cares

At face value, yeah, a second round WR is fine, and that's what I've always preached.  Get the best left in round two if you need one.

Considering the state of this team?  It would be a mistake. 

We drafted ESB/MVS/Moore this year in 4-6 to be what a 2nd round WR would be in his rookie year next year.

We knew Cobb was in his last year, we went in hoping Cobb/Adams/Graham would be enough this year, but we prepared ourselves for next year. 

Taking a WR in this draft in round 2, unless the value is incredible somehow, would be a mistake. 

[JBURGE]

3 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

13 minutes ago, JBURGE said:

I don't agree with @Outpost31 in that we are paying Rodgers to give him sub-par talent. A 2nd round pick is cheap for 4 years. We shouldn't be PAYING free agents on offense a ton of money to come here.. save that for defense. I don't have a problem with spending a 2nd round pick on a WR. 

1st round picks for defense or OT, 2nd and later who cares

At face value, yeah, a second round WR is fine, and that's what I've always preached.  Get the best left in round two if you need one.

Considering the state of this team?  It would be a mistake. 

We drafted ESB/MVS/Moore this year in 4-6 to be what a 2nd round WR would be in his rookie year next year.

We knew Cobb was in his last year, we went in hoping Cobb/Adams/Graham would be enough this year, but we prepared ourselves for next year. 

Taking a WR in this draft in round 2, unless the value is incredible somehow, would be a mistake. 

I don't disagree with you with our current state. But I think having someone like DK Metcalf available to us in the 2nd would be phenomenal. Yeah someone would be buried at the depth chart. It would all depend what we do in FA and the rest of the picks. 

I however have placed myself firmly in the camp that we need to add a playmaker on offense next year. I don't really care what position, RB or WR. It's a luxury, but I still want one. If we need to take one in round 2, so be it. I don't know who that would be at this point cause I haven't looked for them yet, but Marquise Brown is looking out of reach

Would you add Tarik Cohen to this team with a 2nd or 3rd round pick next year? Just out of curiosity

[Leader]

39 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

Is Josh Gordon a #2? Maybe he will follow McDaniels here.

I'd take this kind of production from a #2 in a heartbeat now:

65 targets
39 receptions
701 yards
18.0 Average
3 TDs

Our current #2?

Jimmy Graham

76 targets
46 receptions
549 yards
11.9 Average
2 TDs

Our closest rookie WR?

MVS

54 targets
29 receptions
451 yards
15.6 Average
2 TDs
 

[Leader]

24 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Says the one advocating Rodgers...but I digress.

Value would have be insane for me to take a WR in the 2nd round.  I like what we have from ESB and MVS, and we drafted J'Mon Moore in the 4th round and I want to see what we have in him.  Adding a cheap veteran WR (Tyrell Williams, JJ Nelson, etc.) wouldn't be a bad get, but in terms of spending any legitimate money, I'm going to be disappointed.

As for TE, there's no reason to spend money.  There's no reason to spend much more money given the investment in Jimmy Graham.  And even if we release him, the Packers aren't going to get better production out of the FA class.  And we've discussed ad nauseam that first year rookie TEs usually don't produce.

Dont disagree with the hoped for growth in our rookie class of WRs. I'm all for it.
But it took....what?....three years for Alllison to break thru - get reps and show he could be a bona-fide front line contributor on offense.
What if year two doesnt take off for our rookies? What if its more of the same - good but not great - then, like all things GB - they get hurt?
@JBURGE said it right - and I've been saying if for some time now - we need playmakers on offense. The more the merrier in my book. Rumor has it we happen to have Gods gift to the QB position playing for us. Might be nice to give him some true game breaking talent. Give opposing DCs something to truly lose sleep over.

 

[vegas492]

I won't be disappointed in a WR in round 2.  Happier in round 3, but...

I can't be the only one who can't wait to see the progression of MVS, ESB and Moore, can I?  These guys have great size/speed/atheltic ability.  Everything you want out of a higher drafted WR.  And...ESB and MVS have contributed nicely as rookies.  I think Moore is being overlooked.  He's got some Adams type quickness to him.  If he gets those hands in line, he could be special.

I'm more for another running back with special abilities like Jones.  As the OP said, get Williams to fullback.

Fortify the o-line with two rookies...and hope that Madison returns to get in the mix.

Grab defense early and often.

I'm pretty stoked about what could happen in a year.

[CWood21]

6 minutes ago, Leader said:

Dont disagree with the hoped for growth in our rookie class of WRs. I'm all for it.
But it took....what?....three years for Alllison to break thru - get reps and show he could be a bona-fide front line contributor on offense.
What if year two doesnt take off for our rookies? What if its more of the same - good but not great - then, like all things GB - they get hurt?
@JBURGE said it right - and I've been saying if for some time now - we need playmakers on offense. The more the merrier in my book. Rumor has it we happen to have Gods gift to the QB position playing for us. Might be nice to give him some true game breaking talent. Give opposing DCs something to truly lose sleep over.

Geronimo never broke through, because he never had the opportunity to do so.  Geronimo had 61 targets in the first 25 games of his career.  In his first 5 games this year, he had 30 targets.  Over a 16 game period, that comes out to 96 targets which is a DRASTIC difference.  But it goes back to one unescapable fact for me.  New England seems to be getting good production despite only having Gronk and a bunch of decent WRs.  New Orleans has Michael Thomas and not much else at WR/TE.  Would I like more weapons?  Absolutely, but at the end of the day scheme wins offensively.

[{Family Ghost}]

I could see us standing pat with Adams, Allison, MVS, ESB, Moore, and maybe Kumerow.  I also could see Gute saying .. you know what .. i need a true #2 to offset the loss of Cobb and to push Allison for a starting gig.  Maybe MVS will be ready to fill it, but I hate to count on it.  The other thing .. a n injury to Adams and we have one of the worst WR corps in the NFL.  Gute took a good shot at Allen Robinson this past offseason .. not so sure he wouldn't do it again for a similar talent.  I'm not really interested in drafting a wideout.

[Leader]

7 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Geronimo never broke through, because he never had the opportunity to do so.  Geronimo had 61 targets in the first 25 games of his career.  In his first 5 games this year, he had 30 targets.  Over a 16 game period, that comes out to 96 targets which is a DRASTIC difference.  But it goes back to one unescapable fact for me.  New England seems to be getting good production despite only having Gronk and a bunch of decent WRs.  New Orleans has Michael Thomas and not much else at WR/TE.  Would I like more weapons?  Absolutely, but at the end of the day scheme wins offensively.

You need to look over NEs receiving stats. They're underwhelming at best IMO. Their leader in TD receptions is a RB.

I mentioned Allisions "growth period" and his lack of reps leading up to this years semi-breakthru. I like Allison. Always have - not gonna catch me dissing the guy. But he's Allison. Good. Necessary. But not great......and then hurt. Oh well, so much for our WR producing depth eh? That didnt take long now did it?

So - we willing to devote more of the time necessary for our rookie WRs "growth period?" Will our W's+L's withstand a less than vertical jump in their production? And what then if THEY get hurt?

I dont buy this arguement that TOO MANY playmakers is too many. Just not gonna buy that one.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Leader

[vegas492]

3 minutes ago, {Family Ghost} said:

I could see us standing pat with Adams, Allison, MVS, ESB, Moore, and maybe Kumerow.  I also could see Gute saying .. you know what .. i need a true #2 to offset the loss of Cobb and to push Allison for a starting gig.  Maybe MVS will be ready to fill it, but I hate to count on it.  The other thing .. a n injury to Adams and we have one of the worst WR corps in the NFL.  Gute took a good shot at Allen Robinson this past offseason .. not so sure he wouldn't do it again for a similar talent.  I'm not really interested in drafting a wideout.

Good point, about Robinson and Gute going after him.

Fair question here, for anyone to answer...  Is a free agent WR going to be on the same learning curve, Rogers wise, as a rookie WR?  If we have to dish out real cash for a FA wide receiver, I think there is a very strong possibility that it will take at least a year before he gets in synch with Rodgers.  And that would put the free agent roughly about where we are at currently with our batch of rookies.

I'm intrigued by those second tier WRs, like the kid from the Chargers that was mentioned.  I just temper my enthusiasm.

[Leader]

5 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

Fair question here, for anyone to answer...  Is a free agent WR going to be on the same learning curve, Rogers wise, as a rookie WR?  If we have to dish out real cash for a FA wide receiver, I think there is a very strong possibility that it will take at least a year before he gets in synch with Rodgers.  And that would put the free agent roughly about where we are at currently with our batch of rookies.

 

Bull****.

Not you vegas or your comment - but this persistent notion that our GOAT-like QB has a learning curve. Trust issues. I'm sick of hearing it. Throw the talent the
damn ball. They're the damn WRs. Let them do the receiving and use their talents for YAC.

Throw the damn ball!

Edited December 12, 2018 by Leader

[{Family Ghost}]

2 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

Good point, about Robinson and Gute going after him.

Fair question here, for anyone to answer...  Is a free agent WR going to be on the same learning curve, Rogers wise, as a rookie WR?  If we have to dish out real cash for a FA wide receiver, I think there is a very strong possibility that it will take at least a year before he gets in synch with Rodgers.  And that would put the free agent roughly about where we are at currently with our batch of rookies.

I'm intrigued by those second tier WRs, like the kid from the Chargers that was mentioned.  I just temper my enthusiasm.

It just depends .. some guys are more savvy than others.  A guy like Golden Tate would probably hit it off with Rodgers immediately.  He's super polished and a good route runner .. a finished product.  I was really interested in a guy like Emmanuel Sanders prior to his getting hurt .. a savvy vet should be able to win Rodgers over quickly.

[Lieker]

1 hour ago, Outpost31 said:

Third round seems to be the best spot to get a TE of the future.  Tight ends take time, and the third round produces some of the best. 

Kelce, Reed, Finley, lots of other tight ends taken in round 3.  I think there are a lot more.  Graham is fine for a year with a promising rookie as well. 

I agree with this. Not that I would be against taking a value TE in the 2nd. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this draft class is pretty deep at TE. There's bound to be someone that drops into that 3rd round range. 

[JBURGE]

3 minutes ago, Leader said:

Bull****.

Not you vegas or your comment - but this persistent notion that our GOAT-like QB has a learning curve. Trust issues. I'm sick of hearing it. Throw the talent the
damn ball. They're the damn WRs. Let them do the receiving and use their talents for YAC.

Throw the damn ball!

The issue is that Rodgers DOES have this trust curve. You can't deny it. He has said it. Whether you're sick of hearing it or not, it's a thing. 

If you have to run a curl or a stick and the WR does not come back to the ball, or the WR runs a 3 step out in 4 steps instead, Rodgers is going to let them hear about it, and it will affect his targets