SmittyBacall Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 This might have something to do with his league leading catch rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, showtime said: Yes, Donald and Cox are elite. Nobody else is at the DT position. I think from a physical ability and talent perspective they're the best. I think there's a division with receivers as well as far as Brown, Jones and Beckham being the best. Thomas is really good, but he's just not as physically talented as those guys. It's just like AJ Green to me. Would you say that Donald is a step above Cox? I'd imagine close to 99% of football fans not tied to the Eagles or Rams would stated that Donald is a step above Cox despite them both being considered elite by many. At this point I have Thomas as my number 5 WR, but also have him closing the gap with his level of play this past year with AB, Julio, Beckham, and Hopkins ahead of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakuvious Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 20 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said: This might have something to do with his league leading catch rate. Good find, good post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 22 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said: This might have something to do with his league leading catch rate. I suppose one could certainly question how they came up with their metrics as to what constitutes a catch-able ball as previously it was brought into question what constituted a contested catch for his high contested catch percentage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 23 minutes ago, tyler735 said: You are literally proving my point for me. The poster 2 pages ago stated a person can't be elite if they are a step below another player. Many people would disagree with this logic myself included (despite "elite" being an entirely subjective statement), that is why multiple examples have been provided to show how absurd it would be to to most to argue a player can't be elite if one of his peers is considered a step ahead of him...Hence why the Jerry Rice example is so excellent to highlight the logical flaw here. You're still not really understanding the concept of what separates great players from the good ones. And because of that we're just going to keep talking in circles at this point. So, answer me this in YOUR own opinion. Which WR's do you consider tier 1 and which ones do you consider tier 2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 24 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said: This might have something to do with his league leading catch rate. This backs up what I was saying earlier about how Brees' ball placement and accuracy cannot be ignored in this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
showtime Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 4 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: This backs up what I was saying earlier about how Brees' ball placement and accuracy cannot be ignored in this discussion. Well, yea. Brees is absurd. Just imagine AJ Green playing with Brees his entire career instead of Andy Dalton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 1 minute ago, showtime said: Well, yea. Brees is absurd. Just imagine AJ Green playing with Brees his entire career instead of Andy Dalton. Yep. As I pointed at earlier in the thread, Brees will rarely leave his guys out to dry and will put it on the money to give them the best chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyBacall Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 @tyler735 Thanks for posting some clips. The skinny post from the slot versus Minnesota is really what I was looking for when I asked for an example 15 pages ago. Thomas splits the safeties and Hill underthrows him - no doubt about that. It could have easily went the distance. I find it interesting though that the one play that constitutes a deep ball came from Taysom Hill, in what is a play clearly designed to make the defense think run (considering he only has 7 pass attempts on the year). Nonetheless, he looked capable there. The Peters play is not something I'd constitute as a deep ball. That's a play pretty much any average starting WR could make. He beat an unprepared corner off the snap and Peters played the ball terribly in the air; the rest was a free sprint. The fact still remains though, Thomas just doesn't get targeted deep. And if it was something he could do consistently, we would have countless examples of it because there would be no reason not to take advantage that talent - whether or not he's better in the short/intermediate levels. I posted a Ted Ginn highlight package earlier of numerous deep shots from Brees last season. I refuse to believe his arm aged that excessively overnight to the support the 'Brees' deep ball is completely shot' narrative. Even possession guys like Larry Fitzgerald went deep at Thomas' age until their athletic ability waned. He's a step above Jarvis Landry for me, talent wise. Gifted no doubt, but limited. I don't think other receivers deficiencies in the short/intermediate areas in comparison to Thomas negates what he lacks downfield. I will say this though, if we see Thomas go deep more regularly - maybe with new coaching or quarterbacking - I have no problem admitting I was wrong and adjusting my rankings accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 15 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: You're still not really understanding the concept of what separates great players from the good ones. And because of that we're just going to keep talking in circles at this point. Nope it is still you who is all over the place with this. I've made a point that you haven't seemed to grasp, which is evidenced by you being all over the place with your argument and even proving my argument for me in regards to people being considered "elite" yet within that label still being able to be better or worse than other elite players at that position. 15 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: So, answer me this in YOUR own opinion. Which WR's do you consider tier 1 and which ones do you consider tier 2? I have Michael Thomas as my number 5 WR in the NFL currently with him closing the gap on AB, Jones, Hopkins, and Beckham. I suppose I'd label Thomas just outside of elite with the ones ahead of him being elite. That said, I won't be surprised if this list changes in the next year. AB will be 31 and is showing to be a bit of a headcase, which could lead to a decline in production, Jones will be 30, Beckham has had some issues as a bit of a headcase as well, and who knows how he performs if Manning is back next year, they don't seem to be on the same page. In other words, I wouldn't be surprised if Thomas sneaks into my top 3 next year, and if he continues to play like he has at times this season where he's looked completely unstoppable, he will certainly cross into that "elite" category for me. Hell, even a couple more dominant playoff games might close that gap for me to put him in the elite category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyBacall Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 28 minutes ago, showtime said: Well, yea. Brees is absurd. Just imagine AJ Green playing with Brees his entire career instead of Andy Dalton. This is why I think talent should be paramount in these comparison rankings. Individual ability is the only thing that can be compared fairly across the league without any other variables (e.g. quarterbacking, offense, scheme, usage, targets etc.) interfering or skewing perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 12 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said: This is why I think talent should be paramount in these comparison rankings. Individual ability is the only thing that can be compared fairly across the league without any other variables (e.g. quarterbacking, offense, scheme, usage, targets etc.) interfering or skewing perspective. How do you define individuals ability/talent without taking other variables into account? And how do you do it fairly from person to person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 15 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said: This is why I think talent should be paramount in these comparison rankings. Individual ability is the only thing that can be compared fairly across the league without any other variables (e.g. quarterbacking, offense, scheme, usage, targets etc.) interfering or skewing perspective. People will still spin things. I mean MT had better or similar numbers across the board to Hopkins at the combine yet people see Hopkins as explosive and not MT. Makes very little sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 I'm gonna ignore the other part of your post because I'm not here to get into a pissing match. 11 minutes ago, tyler735 said: Quote So, answer me this in YOUR own opinion. Which WR's do you consider tier 1 and which ones do you consider tier 2? I have Michael Thomas as my number 5 WR in the NFL currently with him closing the gap on AB, Jones, Hopkins, and Beckham. I suppose I'd label Thomas just outside of elite with the ones ahead of him being elite. That said, I won't be surprised if this list changes in the next year. AB will be 31 and is showing to be a bit of a headcase, which could lead to a decline in production, Jones will be 30, Beckham has had some issues as a bit of a headcase as well, and who knows how he performs if Manning is back next year, they don't seem to be on the same page. In other words, I wouldn't be surprised if Thomas sneaks into my top 3 next year, and if he continues to play like he has at times this season where he's looked completely unstoppable, he will certainly cross into that "elite" category for me. Hell, even a couple more dominant playoff games might close that gap for me to put him in the elite category. This doesn't answer my question. However..... 17 minutes ago, tyler735 said: if he continues to play like he has at times this season where he's looked completely unstoppable, he will certainly cross into that "elite" category for me. Thank you. So you finally agree and acknowledge that Thomas is currently not an elite WR. Not sure why it took 19 pages of arguing with those of us who have been trying to point out this very same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakuvious Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 9 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said: People will still spin things. I mean MT had better or similar numbers across the board to Hopkins at the combine yet people see Hopkins as explosive and not MT. Makes very little sense. No one gives a damn about the combine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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