beekay414 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 '06 Kobe v2.0 Lol nah, give me Fr34k all day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-ALL-DAY Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 52 minutes ago, EaglesFan5-36-81 said: Completely spaced on Caplea but man he was impressive before the injury. EG was garbage versus the Sixers and the only other guys in double figures pretty much got theirs in garbage time. Harden's a beast no doubt. You can't really affect his step back and he's shooting something crazy like 40% on them so you are basically screwed lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-ALL-DAY Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 44 minutes ago, beekay414 said: '06 Kobe v2.0 Lol nah, give me Fr34k all day. 06 Kobe was THAT dude. One of the most entertaining seasons ever. Damn I miss him going for 50 a game. Iverson balled out of his a^^ that year as well and LBJ was putting up monster numbers along with Dirk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
resilient part 2 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Harden and Giannis are clearly a notch ahead of the rest, but who would be number 3 in this case? A Davis or Embiid for me with Jokic perhaps in a 3 way tie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle21121 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Honestly there are two types of MVP winners and it mainly goes to the traditional side which is best player on the best team (or one of the best teams) if it’s close. The other way is an almost an aberration like Kobe the year he won and Westbrook a few years ago where you had an historical season putting up historical numbers basically carrying a team to play above expectations almost by themselves but they still gotta finish in the 3-6 seeding range more than likely. Anyways in terms of traditional candidates based on the 5 teams that are right now sorta separating themselves: Giannis, Kawhi, Curry, Durant, Jokic and George and in the other category you have Harden I’m hesitant to include others like Embiid or Kyrie but if you want to throw those names in sure go ahead he’s they aren’t gonna win it. Again this is only a little over half a season sample so many things can change but right of the bat I think you can eliminate Kawhi because of games played, Curry and Durant who are cancelling each other out and until recently haven’t been having this out of this world season and yea I can understand the Curry missed time argument and what sorta season he is having I get it but Durant is great and he went off when Curry was out I just don’t know if unless the Warriors start to finish had this super human year I could give either the award it’s the best team of all time. Again maybe they finish the year losing on 2 more games and it’s different. Obviously I’ll then rule out Embiid, Kyrie and also George for right now. Those guys can return depending on how the rest of the season goes. Now of those 7 (or 8 or 9) names mentioned that’s it right now no one else we’ll win the award these are the only people that have a shot and if it ended today and I had a vote and had to cast it it really comes down to 2 names. I wanted to just simply separate Jokic from the other names because I really think he’s having a hell of a season and what he’s doing is incredible but it’s not on the level of the top 2 guys. Honestly right now it’s either Giannis or Harden the traditional pick and the unbelievable aberration pick. It depends on what you value more best player on best team and a top 5 player in the NBA in Giannis who really is having an unreal season in his own right or the unbelievable record setting machine that is starting to verge into the all time historical stretches weve ever seen and how he’s doing it without any help really. So to break from my Harden is the MVP duh routine I’ve adopted the past couple of months he really is deserving for the MVP if he continues this historic season but as of right now and because I feel at heart I’m a traditionalist Giannis by a small margin would be my MVP. 1. Giannis 2. Harden 3. Jokic 4. Curry 5. Durant 6. George 7. Kawhi 8. Kyrie 9. Embiid 10. If by chance someone else emerges remains to be seen but I doubt it for at least serious consideration anyways. Oh **** I made that whole argument about MVPs and I completely forgot about LeBron. He’s never been missed this much before and I have no idea how it slipped my mind. I’ll put him at 7 on my board and move everyone down a notch and he would be in the same category with James Harden on historical play if he can lead LA to a 3-4 seed or something he will get a ton of votes. So there I did it a top 10 MVP ladder type of rankings but really only think it’s a two person waste and not sure anyone is gonna argue so I doubt I really had to go in on all these guys haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seminoles1 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Kobe definitely won as best player on the best team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle21121 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 11 minutes ago, seminoles1 said: Kobe definitely won as best player on the best team. You are correct that was my bad I was thinking he won mvp in a different year for a different season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Since Harden has gone on his '06 Kobe level of chucking run (30 shots per game) his record is at 15-6. Not bad at all, Beard! I'm proud of you! Giannis over that same time span? 16-2. 27.3 PTS, 11.8 REB, 5.8 AST in 32 minutes per night (17 Shots per night) for a PER 36 of 30.7 PTS, 13.3 REB, 6.5 AST. Wonder what he would do with 13 more shots per night! On a PPS basis during this ridiculous Harden stretch, they are BOTH averaging 1.02 points per shot with Giannis slightly ahead at 1.0208 PPS to Harden's 1.0180 PPS. Harden: 906 points on 890 shots (583 FGA, 307 FTA)Giannis: 491 points on 481 shots (303 FGA, 178 FTA) 906/890 = 1.01797 491/481 = 1.02079 Context matters, folks. Giannis is still your MVP. Best record in the NBA and producing at the same exact rate as his main competitor. Don't let the volume fool you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle21121 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 11 minutes ago, beekay414 said: Since Harden has gone on his '06 Kobe level of chucking run (30 shots per game) his record is at 15-6. Not bad at all, Beard! I'm proud of you! Giannis over that same time span? 16-2. 27.3 PTS, 11.8 REB, 5.8 AST in 32 minutes per night (17 Shots per night) for a PER 36 of 30.7 PTS, 13.3 REB, 6.5 AST. Wonder what he would do with 13 more shots per night! I won’t and didn’t in my previous spiel dispute this as I have Giannis #1. I think the MVP is given to the traditional favourite 99% of the time and he is the clear traditional favourite. Usually the debate is between several traditional favourites that have all had great seasons or there is a clear winner. I guess it’s funny that Harden is in that Westbrook triple double category this time around. If you believe in the extraordinary aberration argument then Harden has a case because of what he’s done (regardless of the 13 more shot attempts and worse record in that span) because he absolutely has to do that in order to win any games with what he has to work with right now and the way the offense is run. If you went reverse and said what would Harden and Houston be with 13 less shots per game is probably a 6-15 record and it’s a streak of 20 plus point games that’s only noteable for the local audience watching Rockets telecasts and they are basically out of the playoff race and the talk of should the Rockets blow it up is starting. He basically has to do this for them to have a chance against anyone right now. Giannis doesn’t have to. He’s not on a star studded team but it’s a really solid and deep team they have a lot of guys that can play and contribute and can demolish the bad teams in the nba and Giannis can rest up sit out the 4th and not have to take the team on his back to win a random Wednesday night game in January. Thats the argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 8 minutes ago, kyle21121 said: I won’t and didn’t in my previous spiel dispute this as I have Giannis #1. I think the MVP is given to the traditional favourite 99% of the time and he is the clear traditional favourite. Usually the debate is between several traditional favourites that have all had great seasons or there is a clear winner. I guess it’s funny that Harden is in that Westbrook triple double category this time around. If you believe in the extraordinary aberration argument then Harden has a case because of what he’s done (regardless of the 13 more shot attempts and worse record in that span) because he absolutely has to do that in order to win any games with what he has to work with right now and the way the offense is run. If you went reverse and said what would Harden and Houston be with 13 less shots per game is probably a 6-15 record and it’s a streak of 20 plus point games that’s only noteable for the local audience watching Rockets telecasts and they are basically out of the playoff race and the talk of should the Rockets blow it up is starting. He basically has to do this for them to have a chance against anyone right now. Giannis doesn’t have to. He’s not on a star studded team but it’s a really solid and deep team they have a lot of guys that can play and contribute and can demolish the bad teams in the nba and Giannis can rest up sit out the 4th and not have to take the team on his back to win a random Wednesday night game in January. Thats the argument. Look at my edit hombre. The Bucks are the #1 defensive team in the NBA. It's funny what can happen when your game isn't predicated only on one side of the court... Harden HAS to do this because his team's philosophy was geared this way even when at full health. They were never going to stop anyone defensively no matter who they had healthy and he plays a huge part in that as well. You can't fault anyone else for that. So now that the glaring hole that everyone knew was there is even more glaring, supposedly we're supposed to use that as support for him? Nah. Homie don't play that. Look at it all with context. Giannis produces at a nearly identical PPS rate while being a massive cog to the best defensive team in the NBA. His team also happens to have the best record in the NBA. He's your MVP without question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 39 minutes ago, beekay414 said: Since Harden has gone on his '06 Kobe level of chucking run (30 shots per game) his record is at 15-6. Not bad at all, Beard! I'm proud of you! Giannis over that same time span? 16-2. 27.3 PTS, 11.8 REB, 5.8 AST in 32 minutes per night (17 Shots per night) for a PER 36 of 30.7 PTS, 13.3 REB, 6.5 AST. Wonder what he would do with 13 more shots per night! On a PPS basis during this ridiculous Harden stretch, they are BOTH averaging 1.02 points per shot with Giannis slightly ahead at 1.0208 PPS to Harden's 1.0180 PPS. Harden: 906 points on 890 shots (583 FGA, 307 FTA)Giannis: 491 points on 481 shots (303 FGA, 178 FTA) 906/890 = 1.01797 491/481 = 1.02079 Context matters, folks. Giannis is still your MVP. Best record in the NBA and producing at the same exact rate as his main competitor. Don't let the volume fool you. If you wanna add the entire year to this, Giannis is still fractionally ahead of Harden on a PPS basis. Harden: 1596 points on 1575 shots (1052 FGA, 523 FTA)Giannis: 1138 points on 1123 shots (728 FGA, 395 FTA) 1596/1575 = 1.013333333 1138/1123 = 1.013357 Again, best record in the NBA. Best defense in the NBA. Produces at a nearly identical PPS as his main competitor. Guys, this isn't even a debate. Call me a homer, I don't give a ****. The numbers don't lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle21121 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 15 minutes ago, beekay414 said: Look at my edit hombre. The Bucks are the #1 defensive team in the NBA. It's funny what can happen when your game isn't predicated only on one side of the court... Harden HAS to do this because his team's philosophy was geared this way even when at full health. They were never going to stop anyone defensively no matter who they had healthy and he plays a huge part in that as well. You can't fault anyone else for that. So now that the glaring hole that everyone knew was there is even more glaring, supposedly we're supposed to use that as support for him? Nah. Homie don't play that. Look at it all with context. Giannis produces at a nearly identical PPS rate while being a massive cog to the best defensive team in the NBA. His team also happens to have the best record in the NBA. He's your MVP without question. See I’m in a tough position here because a few weeks ago I would have said no debate and I don’t dispute any of the advanced data that you’ve given me I also do agree that Giannis is the MVP. I’m basically arguing something I don’t fully believe in. I sorta now think he has a shot just watching the past few Rockets game and what he has to deal with. I wouldn’t vote for him but there are literally thousands of scenarios that could play out the rest of the season and are few of those that could tip the scales in the favour of Harden. If you want to tell me Giannis has been just as good offensively and 20Xs better defensively I would agree and that Giannis is a big part of why this Bucks team is the best team in the NBA currently again I agree. That’s why he has my vote right now. Yes this is the Houston offense and it’s how it’s run but with a sometimes reliable Eric Gordon and PJ Tucker as his second and third best players this team really shouldn’t even be in the mix right now. Harden isn’t a perfect player but he is the best version of himself and has to be that way and if he continues this pace and the Rockets get the third or fourth seed and the Bucks fall (I mean it’s unlikely they fall far). Then I can see why people would vote for Harden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle21121 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Look I didn’t want to get myself into this argument for Harden and I don’t think he should be MVP unless this continues the rest of the season (to an extent) and he wills Houston to say 3rd in the west and Milwaukee falls to say 2-3 in the East (they won’t fall any further unless something goes terribly wrong) and if people agree West >>>> East and for a large portion of the season Harden has had to do this by himself and he ends up with a 38/7/8 star line on the season I could see him winning it assuming Giannis and Harden are still clearly the top 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 5 minutes ago, kyle21121 said: See I’m in a tough position here because a few weeks ago I would have said no debate and I don’t dispute any of the advanced data that you’ve given me I also do agree that Giannis is the MVP. I’m basically arguing something I don’t fully believe in. I sorta now think he has a shot just watching the past few Rockets game and what he has to deal with. I wouldn’t vote for him but there are literally thousands of scenarios that could play out the rest of the season and are few of those that could tip the scales in the favour of Harden. If you want to tell me Giannis has been just as good offensively and 20Xs better defensively I would agree and that Giannis is a big part of why this Bucks team is the best team in the NBA currently again I agree. That’s why he has my vote right now. Yes this is the Houston offense and it’s how it’s run but with a sometimes reliable Eric Gordon and PJ Tucker as his second and third best players this team really shouldn’t even be in the mix right now. Harden isn’t a perfect player but he is the best version of himself and has to be that way and if he continues this pace and the Rockets get the third or fourth seed and the Bucks fall (I mean it’s unlikely they fall far). Then I can see why people would vote for Harden. We've literally seen this story before though. That's why I keep referencing '06 Kobe. He lifted Lamar Odom and a bunch of scrubs to a 45 win season and a playoff appearance and still only finished 4th in the voting. Kobe averaged 35 points on a team that was 7th in scoring at 99 PPG. Harden is averaging 35 PPG (before tonight) on a team that is 13th in scoring at 112 PPG. This isn't anything new, folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 1 minute ago, kyle21121 said: Look I didn’t want to get myself into this argument for Harden and I don’t think he should be MVP unless this continues the rest of the season (to an extent) and he wills Houston to say 3rd in the west and Milwaukee falls to say 2-3 in the East (they won’t fall any further unless something goes terribly wrong) and if people agree West >>>> East and for a large portion of the season Harden has had to do this by himself and he ends up with a 38/7/8 star line on the season I could see him winning it assuming Giannis and Harden are still clearly the top 2. That's a lot of "what if" variables in there. Based on where we are RIGHT NOW, I don't think there's any question who the NBA MVP is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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