Sam Darnold vs Josh Allen is the next great QB rivalry

[NJerseypaint]

On 2/1/2019 at 3:38 PM, BleedTheClock said:

What GM's would take Darnold over Baker right now? There's a 0% chance this would happen. Why, because Darnold is 2 years younger and turns the ball over at an alarming rate? There is nothing that Darnold does better than Baker other than being 2 years younger. And QB's play into their late 30's so age is irrelevant. I can see zero reason to take Darnold over Baker other than the fact that you're a Jets fan and want to believe you guys got the better QB. It may very well turn out to be true, but literally nothing from their rookie seasons would suggest that thought.

Why do you have to keep exaggerating? If you did anything more than boxscore read, you would've known that most of Darnold's turnovers came from forcing the ball late in the game on 4th down when the game was already out of hand. Nothing alarming about it.

And maybe the reason why you "can see zero reason to take Darnold over Baker" is because you're a Browns fan? I'm biased but so are you, so step off that high horse.

I don't care if we got the better QB or not. My argument is that Darnold isn't far behind Baker in performance. It's not something visible by just looking at the numbers, but by watching the games.

 

On 2/2/2019 at 1:24 AM, Yin-Yang said:

What do you feel Darnold does better or comparably to Mayfield? You can’t really use the “we would suck even more without him” angle with the Browns.

I'm not understanding. Just because the Browns would suck without Mayfield, I can't say the Jets would suck without Darnold? My point has nothing to do with Darnold being better than Mayfield. It's that Mayfield is a tier above Darnold. He's not. He was in a better position to perform and did - that's about it.

 

Throughout the season, Baker and Mayfield both faced Denver and Houston - though Baker played them away and Darnold at home.

DEN

BM: 18/31   58.06%   188YDs   2TDs   1INTs

SD: 10/22   45.45%   198YDs   3TDs   1INTs

HOU

BM: 29/43   67.44%   397YDs   1TDs   3INTs

SD: 24/38   63.16%   253YDs   2TDs   0INTs

 

Are you going to tell me Baker is a tier way above Sam when comparing apples to apples as best as possible?

[BleedTheClock]

16 minutes ago, NJerseypaint said:

Just because the Browns would suck without Mayfield, I can't say the Jets would suck without Darnold

But the Jets suck with Darnold too.

[Mega Ron]

I thought Darnold looked pretty exciting.

[NJerseypaint]

18 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

But the Jets suck with Darnold too.

Yeah, and they'd suck much much more without him was the point being referenced. It's literally typed out for you in Ying-Yang's quote.

[SDotNova]

Getting ready to watch the super bowl and was sort of thinking how people keep trying to write the future without Brady. 

There’s a good chance the next great QB competition is Brady vs Mahomes. Until he slows down, the road to the super bowl in the AFC goes through NE. So far, Mahomes is 0-2. 

[Soko]

3 hours ago, NJerseypaint said:

I'm not understanding. Just because the Browns would suck without Mayfield, I can't say the Jets would suck without Darnold?

Huh? Think you’re mixing me up with someone else.

3 hours ago, NJerseypaint said:

My point has nothing to do with Darnold being better than Mayfield. It's that Mayfield is a tier above Darnold. He's not. He was in a better position to perform and did - that's about it.

So I’ll ask again: what specifically do you feel Darnold did that is similar or superior to what Mayfield did? And I mean their ability, not their stats.

3 hours ago, NJerseypaint said:

Throughout the season, Baker and Mayfield both faced Denver and Houston - though Baker played them away and Darnold at home.

DEN

BM: 18/31   58.06%   188YDs   2TDs   1INTs

SD: 10/22   45.45%   198YDs   3TDs   1INTs

HOU

BM: 29/43   67.44%   397YDs   1TDs   3INTs

SD: 24/38   63.16%   253YDs   2TDs   0INTs

Things change throughout the season. The Colts shutdown Zeke and then got run all over by Damien Williams. The Pats outlasted Aaron Rodgers, Patrick Mahomes, and Andrew Luck, but got beaten down by Blake Bortles, Matthew Stafford, and Marcus Mariota. 

3 hours ago, NJerseypaint said:

Are you going to tell me Baker is a tier way above Sam when comparing apples to apples as best as possible?

I think Baker should definitely be viewed as a tier above Darnold as things currently stand, yes.

Why specifically do you feel saying so is so outlandish, stats aside (which heavily favor Baker Mayfield)?

[ILoveTheVikings]

But Baker is and will continue to be better than both.

[thebestever6]

On 2/2/2019 at 5:52 PM, candyman93 said:

I remember having an argument with you Jets fans about the Browns having better players than the Jets. Yet, your argument was that the Browns only had “names.” Keep in mind this was before Josh Gordon’s trade too.

 

So I assume you’ve all pulled a 180 on that argument. To be fair it’s mostly just @KingOfTheDot

 

I'm a Bronco fan who loved baker way more than darnold I wanted no part of darnold.  I thought he was soft but I watched him in 4 games and Darnold impressed me in 3 of them. I think he has a bright future. And that gap between him and baker closed a lot in my eyes since pre draft. 

[NJerseypaint]

15 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Huh? Think you’re mixing me up with someone else.

So I’ll ask again: what specifically do you feel Darnold did that is similar or superior to what Mayfield did? And I mean their ability, not their stats.

Things change throughout the season. The Colts shutdown Zeke and then got run all over by Damien Williams. The Pats outlasted Aaron Rodgers, Patrick Mahomes, and Andrew Luck, but got beaten down by Blake Bortles, Matthew Stafford, and Marcus Mariota. 

I think Baker should definitely be viewed as a tier above Darnold as things currently stand, yes.

Why specifically do you feel saying so is so outlandish, stats aside (which heavily favor Baker Mayfield)?

I'm not mixing you up. You said I can't play the "worse without my QB" angle with the Browns. The read to me that I can't say my team would be significantly worse without Darnold because the same would go for the Browns.

1. I don't feel Darnold is superior. 2. I don't think Mayfield does anything that Darnold can't do.

If you're saying Mayfield should be in a tier above Darnold, then I'm saying you are just boxscore reading. Watching Darnold, he's not far behind Mayfield in becoming a great NFL QB. Mayfield get's the nod as the better QB because he has the wins and stats, but on a better team I am 100% sure that Darnold matches that production.

[Ty21]

On 1/23/2019 at 5:03 PM, ET80 said:

I'd personally say Deshaun Watson vs Andrew Luck, but I'm biased.

I’d agree with that, house mouse vs mountain lion is def the next best rivalry 

[Soko]

1 hour ago, NJerseypaint said:

I'm not mixing you up. You said I can't play the "worse without my QB" angle with the Browns. The read to me that I can't say my team would be significantly worse without Darnold because the same would go for the Browns.

Well, you could say it, but what’s the point? It’s true/relevant for both QBs. 

1 hour ago, NJerseypaint said:

1. I don't feel Darnold is superior. 2. I don't think Mayfield does anything that Darnold can't do.

If you're saying Mayfield should be in a tier above Darnold, then I'm saying you are just boxscore reading. Watching Darnold, he's not far behind Mayfield in becoming a great NFL QB. Mayfield get's the nod as the better QB because he has the wins and stats, but on a better team I am 100% sure that Darnold matches that production.

I always love the “if you think x, you just don’t watch football” type comments

For someone accusing another of boxscore scouting, you’ve yet to say anything at all that doesn’t pertain to wins/stats. I’m trying to get you to elaborate on your opinion but you won’t, so let’s not throw words around.. 

I’ll re-phrase my question you refuse to answer: what specific aspects of playing the QB position do you feel Baker and Darnold are comparable in? You can’t just say “all of them” - even amongst the elite QBs, there will be differences in their skillsets.

 

[NJerseypaint]

4 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

Well, you could say it, but what’s the point? It’s true/relevant for both QBs. 

I always love the “if you think x, you just don’t watch football” type comments

For someone accusing another of boxscore scouting, you’ve yet to say anything at all that doesn’t pertain to wins/stats. I’m trying to get you to elaborate on your opinion but you won’t, so let’s not throw words around.. 

I’ll re-phrase my question you refuse to answer: what specific aspects of playing the QB position do you feel Baker and Darnold are comparable in? You can’t just say “all of them” - even amongst the elite QBs, there will be differences in their skillsets.

 

Because I'm comparing both QBs and it supports my assertion that Darnold has a super weak cast that hurts his numbers.

I didn't say you didn't watch football. I said you don't watch Jet games. Am I wrong? Are you secretly tuning into to watch one of the worst teams in the league?

And how do you want me to elaborate? Darnold throw ball real good? Want to me send you a highlight reel off YouTube? Here. He makes plays with his feet, keep his eyes downfield, and throws some absolute dimes. It's not that I don't think Mayfield can't do this - it's that Darnold can too. I don't see why this is even relevant though. We don't tier QBs on skillsets. We tier them on production and Sam Darnold would have the production if he had the supporting cast Mayfield did. If you don't believe that he would, it's because you just looked at the stats and overlooked his play.

Its fair to say Mayfield is better than Darnold as of right now, but Darnold is right on his heels.

 

 

[Soko]

4 minutes ago, NJerseypaint said:

Because I'm comparing both QBs and it supports my assertion that Darnold has a super weak cast that hurts his numbers.

Nobody disagrees with that, though lol.

4 minutes ago, NJerseypaint said:

I didn't say you didn't watch football. I said you don't watch Jet games. Am I wrong? Are you secretly tuning into to watch one of the worst teams in the league?

I live in NY. Majority of the time I want to watch a game live (without using other methods), it’s the Jets/Giants. I’m not going to pretend I am as knowledgeable about them as I am the Pats, but I really liked Darnold throughout the draft process so it’s not like I wasn’t paying attention. 

4 minutes ago, NJerseypaint said:

And how do you want me to elaborate? Darnold throw ball real good? Want to me send you a highlight reel off YouTube? Here. He makes plays with his feet, keep his eyes downfield, and throws some absolute dimes. It's not that I don't think Mayfield can't do this - it's that Darnold can too.

By saying what Darnold is good/bad at? By saying what Baker is good/bad at? It’s not hard to do. 

Baker impressed this year with his arm strength (which I wasn’t sure he’d show in the NFL), accuracy, and field vision. A lot of what he did (like keeping his eyes downfield), I wasn’t sure he would do at this level of competition. He, like most rookies, at his share of “wtf” type throws and IMO you can chalk some of those up as rookies mistakes. 

Darnold, also impressed (especially later in the season). He showed some warts early - some simple reads on defense not being made and throws that were imperfect. He was largely a more inconsistent player than Baker was on the year and IMO struggled reading defenses at times. That improved later on, and so did his pre-snap adjustments. Darnold, like Baker, made great throws downfield and wowed with his ability to thread balls when necessary. 

Both guys need to be more consistent than they were in order to take the next step and both have great deep balls. However, I do believe Baker sees the field better than Darnold right now and that he makes/made less rookie type errors. Obviously, the Browns have a superior supporting cast so the jury is out - but I can only comment on what I’ve seen, not on what would happen in an alternate reality where these two switch places. When you get access to the multiverse, please tell us how they do on separate teams.

4 minutes ago, NJerseypaint said:

I don't see why this is even relevant though. We don't tier QBs on skillsets. We tier them on production and Sam Darnold would have the production if he had the supporting cast Mayfield did. If you don't believe that he would, it's because you just looked at the stats and overlooked his play.

You can’t prove a negative. Those sorts of arguments are always awful. 

And no, we don’t tier them on production. Matthew Stafford is consistently one of the most productive QBs in the NFL and he’s not a top QB. Production =/= skill.

4 minutes ago, NJerseypaint said:

Its fair to say Mayfield is better than Darnold as of right now, but Darnold is right on his heels.

I said in my first post it was semantics - I think Baker is decisively ahead of Darnold as of this moment. Not like, Rivers/Ryan or Brady/Rodgers level close. 

[Rockice_8]

Baker is getting wildly overrated here.  He had a very good rookie year and looks like he's got everything to be great but he played the weakest or close to weakest defensive schedule in the entire league of any QB rookie or not last year.  Can't find the link but I saw someone post that late in the year.  He was a 3 year starter in college and was 23 entering the year and turning 24 soon so he was a veteran college player in that regard and far more advanced then anyone else in that stacked QB class.  I think we need to pump the breaks that he is the next Payton/Brady with Maholmes.

That doesn't take away from his rookie season and future upside but seeing him mentioned as a bonfide superstar and in the same breath as Maholmes as a bit premature.  If you think that he will get there that's fine but he's not there yet.

[Rockice_8]

Comparing Mayfield and Sam at this point is tough one guy is far more seasoned then the other.  Plus as I said in my other post Mayfield played a cupcake defensive schedule while Sam's I believe was one of the hardest for what it's worth. 

Come back and have this argument in 2 years when all things are relatively even.