Vikings Sign Josh Kline

[vikestyle]

29 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

YEah I watched Sweezy in college and have watched his development so far in the NFL.  Kline not as much but do not get to follow much Kent State football but there is a reason he was a UDFA obviously.  I question where this love of Josh Kline is coming from unless some here just blatantly accept anyone and everyone the Vikings sign as a great pickup.  Sure rip on Sweezy I do not really care, but Kline deserves just as much critique as Sweezy does.  But no lock him up for a future star guard and high level player, whatever.

Sweezy has started more than Kline in the NFL and more consistently has, but no grade everything on PFF or whatever source people are gaining this from, a some what one sided number and run with it.  Let me guess Kline has a better "grade' than Sweezy this past year or whatever so people consider him a superior player?  Great if the NFL was ran like a fantasy football team that is awesome, great sign for the Vikings, wait you paid him $15 million over three years.  

Maybe it will work out, maybe it will not but would be nice if people commented on players based on watching them play instead of a grade they see on the internet someone else gave.  

 

You are just putting words in my mouth. I'm not even arguing that Kline could be a bad signing, but your willingness to make a bunch of excuses for J.R. Sweezy and to not also give Kline any sort of benefit of the doubt is puzzling. You're obviously just a Sweezy fan which is fine.

You have pointed to starts as a big plus for OL with both Sweezy and Mills. Both of those guys were starters on really bad OL's. Just because somebody has started doesn't mean they're good. T.J. Clemmings got a ton of starts early in his career.

Saying "there was a reason he was an UDFA" to try to say that Kline is worse than Sweezy is not a valid argument. If it was, Laquon Treadwell would be 1000x better than Adam Thielen. And there are countless other examples of people both overperforming and underperforming their draft status.

Lastly, this is a forum where fans talk about football. Not all of us have the time or resources to watch 500+ draft prospects and every game of the NFL season every year, so we use the resources available to us. PFF is one of those resources. I think most of us know it isn't the end all be all, but it's what we've got. If you truly watch every draft prospect and every player in the NFL that's awesome and I'm glad you're a resource on this forum, but we are also entitled to our opinions.

[Ozzy]

48 minutes ago, Dolmonite26 said:

No one said that....

Yeah they did see below

10 hours ago, boombap said:

Maybe it's just me but I'd prefer the guy that has played G at a high level in the not too distant past. Not saying Sweezy cant be good but hes never shown it on the field.

 

 

 

26 minutes ago, vikestyle said:

You are just putting words in my mouth. I'm not even arguing that Kline could be a bad signing, but your willingness to make a bunch of excuses for J.R. Sweezy and to not also give Kline any sort of benefit of the doubt is puzzling. You're obviously just a Sweezy fan which is fine.

You have pointed to starts as a big plus for OL with both Sweezy and Mills. Both of those guys were starters on really bad OL's. Just because somebody has started doesn't mean they're good. T.J. Clemmings got a ton of starts early in his career.

Saying "there was a reason he was an UDFA" to try to say that Kline is worse than Sweezy is not a valid argument. If it was, Laquon Treadwell would be 1000x better than Adam Thielen. And there are countless other examples of people both overperforming and underperforming their draft status.

Lastly, this is a forum where fans talk about football. Not all of us have the time or resources to watch 500+ draft prospects and every game of the NFL season every year, so we use the resources available to us. PFF is one of those resources. I think most of us know it isn't the end all be all, but it's what we've got. If you truly watch every draft prospect and every player in the NFL that's awesome and I'm glad you're a resource on this forum, but we are also entitled to our opinions.

Very true, and sure people do not have the time to watch a lot of football players but PFF is not the bible and grades are dependent on what a player is asked to do and what system they are in.  Tennessee is turning into a power run team because of the QB limitations, they do not pass the ball as often thus the OL is not asked to protect as often.  Oh and that QB is a fine athlete so that helps the OL look good as well.  Kind of like Drew Brees who is amazing in the pocket, really knows how to get the ball out and on time and accurately, so yeah they do not give up a ton of sacks because of the system they are in thus a ton of the OL are highly 'graded' by PFF.  Many rightly so but some yeah it is the system and what is asked of them that grades them out highly.   Sometimes it is right on I am sure, other times it is not but clearly people are getting on me about Sweezy because of a grade that was given to him compared to Kline as proof Kline is a great 'high level' player.  Yeah, and no I am not a JR Sweezy fan but looking at the list of players I originally brought up he was an example.  But yeah give me DJ Fluker all day or Mike Iupati but clearly the Vikings are going in a different direction, not to mention my original point they are cheaper, oh and AJ Cann who is a quality player as well and Max Garcia who has some big time upside but injuries have hurt his progression as a player big time along with others I already listed.  

I agree others have options and that is the point to discuss.   But at least the players I like there are reasons I like them that are not an outside source telling me to like them based on a numerical grade.  Maybe that is not what is going down here but I feel it is exactly what is going down here.  So if anyone can provide a real reason why Josh Kline is this fine high level player please do so, maybe I should go ask a Titans fan about him and see what they say.

 

[Cearbhall]

Given the Vikings track record it is hard to blindly trust their guys evaluating the talent and coaching it. It would be a mistake to assume that Kline will be an average offensive linemen based on that. In fact, I don't see much to warrant assuming he'll be average.

That said, having him is better than not having anyone.

Personally, I would have given a Saffold two year $24M contract with a couple options years before I paid a Kline $15M for three years, but that is just me. Kline is the second highest paid lineman on the Vikings now. To me, that is just sad.

[vikestyle]

10 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Very true, and sure people do not have the time to watch a lot of football players but PFF is not the bible and grades are dependent on what a player is asked to do and what system they are in.  Tennessee is turning into a power run team because of the QB limitations, they do not pass the ball as often thus the OL is not asked to protect as often.  Oh and that QB is a fine athlete so that helps the OL look good as well.  Kind of like Drew Brees who is amazing in the pocket, really knows how to get the ball out and on time and accurately, so yeah they do not give up a ton of sacks because of the system they are in thus a ton of the OL are highly 'graded' by PFF.  Many rightly so but some yeah it is the system and what is asked of them that grades them out highly.   Sometimes it is right on I am sure, other times it is not but clearly people are getting on me about Sweezy because of a grade that was given to him compared to Kline as proof Kline is a great 'high level' player.  Yeah, and no I am not a JR Sweezy fan but looking at the list of players I originally brought up he was an example.  But yeah give me DJ Fluker all day or Mike Iupati but clearly the Vikings are going in a different direction, not to mention my original point they are cheaper, oh and AJ Cann who is a quality player as well and Max Garcia who has some big time upside but injuries have hurt his progression as a player big time along with others I already listed.  

I agree others have options and that is the point to discuss.   But at least the players I like there are reasons I like them that are not an outside source telling me to like them based on a numerical grade.  Maybe that is not what is going down here but I feel it is exactly what is going down here.  So if anyone can provide a real reason why Josh Kline is this fine high level player please do so, maybe I should go ask a Titans fan about him and see what they say.

 

Athletic QB's can also be harder to block for. Less athletic QB's are more predictable, so OL know where they'll be and where to steer whoever they're blocking whereas an athletic QB may run into pressure.

It's great you have a lot of other players you preferred to Kline, but I think most of us are just trying to be optimistic and hopeful about the guy we signed. It doesn't really help us to dwell on the guys we didn't sign. I don't think that Kline will necessarily be a high level player, but I hope he will be an adequate starter like he has been in the past.

For me personally, it would be more helpful if you would say the things that you see on film that you like about other players. Saying you've followed their careers, that they start a lot, and that we need to watch the film doesn't really form a solid argument. I can read the well thought out things on PFF and articles that Arif Hasan and others put out on The Athletic, so I'm more inclined to form my opinion from those things. If you were to point out the specific things that you like and dislike about certain players games I'd be more likely to change my opinion.

[vikestyle]

11 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

Given the Vikings track record it is hard to blindly trust their guys evaluating the talent and coaching it. It would be a mistake to assume that Kline will be an average offensive linemen based on that. In fact, I don't see much to warrant assuming he'll be average.

That said, having him is better than not having anyone.

Personally, I would have given a Saffold two year $24M contract with a couple options years before I paid a Kline $15M for three years, but that is just me. Kline is the second highest paid lineman on the Vikings now. To me, that is just sad.

The thing with Saffold is that if we had signed him to that contract, you are probably saying goodbye to Anthony Barr. Linebacker immediately becomes a need in a very thin LB class. The OL class is deep. I'd rather try my hand at taking a couple early OL and developing them. 

Also, Reiff is the only starter not on a rookie contract, so Kline is obviously going to be the second highest paid guy.

[vikingsrule]

8 minutes ago, vikestyle said:

The thing with Saffold is that if we had signed him to that contract, you are probably saying goodbye to Anthony Barr. Linebacker immediately becomes a need in a very thin LB class. The OL class is deep. I'd rather try my hand at taking a couple early OL and developing them. 

Also, Reiff is the only starter not on a rookie contract, so Kline is obviously going to be the second highest paid guy.

The Vikes could have probably gotten by with Eric Wilson for a year. There's a lot of talent on the defense whereas the interior OL is an absolute mess. 

[vikestyle]

1 minute ago, vikingsrule said:

The Vikes could have probably gotten by with Eric Wilson for a year. There's a lot of talent on the defense whereas the interior OL is an absolute mess. 

Yeah it's personal preference there. I value Barr as a part of the future of our defense more than Roger Saffold, but I understand the contrary. I have talked myself into believing that Slick Rick will find a 10 year starter on the OL in this draft (hopefully two) but have nothing but blind optimism to back that up.

[Cearbhall]

18 minutes ago, vikestyle said:

The thing with Saffold is that if we had signed him to that contract, you are probably saying goodbye to Anthony Barr. Linebacker immediately becomes a need in a very thin LB class. The OL class is deep. I'd rather try my hand at taking a couple early OL and developing them. 

Yeah, I am aware that having a more expensive offensive line would mean less money for other positions. Given the recent history of the Vikings that wouldn't be a very hard decision for me to make. As is, if I was the owner it wouldn't be a very hard decision for me to make to move on from the current general manager.

Obviously, you don't move on from a general manager before the draft so he has a little bit of time yet to show that he can assemble something other than an embarrassment of an offensive line. In just a few weeks, the question would be whether I do it right after the draft or wait until June when a general manager's job is mostly done for the year. I would likely wait until June and then get a new general manager in to start working on developing plans for '20 ASAP. He would have the '19 season to take stock and evaluate the current situation. But, I know Wilf fired Fran Foley just days after the draft; I can see the wisdom of doing it then in hopes that the new GM can patch the roster up a bit for '19 still before starting to set the table for '20. There would still be time for trades.

[BWG VIKE]

The season cant get here fast enough

[wcblack34]

Frankly, there were very few decent free agent options out there this year. I honestly would not have given Saffold the contract he got with the Titans. He's always been average, and he's had the benefit of playing next to Whitworth and Sullivan the last couple of years. Putting him between Reiff and Elfleing, if they play at 2018 levels, likely results in severe buyer's remorse.

This team has to hit on a couple of linemen in the draft because our margin for error with the salary cap is just too small. 

[vikingsrule]

54 minutes ago, wcblack34 said:

Frankly, there were very few decent free agent options out there this year. I honestly would not have given Saffold the contract he got with the Titans. He's always been average, and he's had the benefit of playing next to Whitworth and Sullivan the last couple of years. Putting him between Reiff and Elfleing, if they play at 2018 levels, likely results in severe buyer's remorse.

This team has to hit on a couple of linemen in the draft because our margin for error with the salary cap is just too small. 

I agree in regards to Saffold. The only FA OL I had an interest in paying significant money to was Paradis.

[VikeManDan]

On 3/23/2019 at 11:48 PM, Robb_K said:

There is a misunderstanding here.  I didn't mean that they don't have to use ANY of their top 3 choices for an OL.  I meant that they won't have to use ALL 3 of their top 3 choices for 3 offensive linemen.

I said they don't have pressure to take offensive linemen with their top 3 choices.  I didn't say AN offensive lineman, or 2 offensive linemen with their top 3 choices. 

I agree wholeheartedly with your 2nd sentence.

Perhaps there is a misunderstanding. I've quoted the original post below.

On 3/21/2019 at 9:24 PM, Robb_K said:

...That takes away the pressure on The Vikings to draft OL with their top 3 choices...

I guess I interpreted that statement to mean the Vikings don't have to draft any OL at all with their first three picks (seems you've addressed this in the first post I quoted). I don't think anyone would expect they'd draft three straight OL, however, I'm sure some people would be thrilled if they did.

[boombap]

17 hours ago, Ozzy said:

My confusion stems from where is your proof Kline is a "good" to "high level" player?  What PFF?  That is your proof?  How often have you actually watched him play?  You watch him in college?  Who is to say Kline has ever been that good?  Since he was a starter that makes him good?  I say again make any All Pro or Pro bowl teams?  Of course not...

The difference between $5.2 million dollars a year to $1.5 to max $3.5 million a year is a lot in my mind.  Thus cheaper and not all that much worse OG who is a better run blocker arguably which what I believe to be more upside.  Maybe Kline will become this 'good' to 'high level' guard you call him, I just doubt it.  

My proof is that multiple times professional football front offices have offered him bigger contracts. Ill trust the guys who do this for a living.PFF has its flaws but it also indicates he has performed better. Not sure where your proof is coming from.

[boombap]

12 hours ago, Cearbhall said:

Given the Vikings track record it is hard to blindly trust their guys evaluating the talent and coaching it. It would be a mistake to assume that Kline will be an average offensive linemen based on that. In fact, I don't see much to warrant assuming he'll be average.

That said, having him is better than not having anyone.

Personally, I would have given a Saffold two year $24M contract with a couple options years before I paid a Kline $15M for three years, but that is just me. Kline is the second highest paid lineman on the Vikings now. To me, that is just sad.

Saffols and his wife wanted to go to Nashville (they love the city).We would have had to massively outbid Tenn.

[vikings209]

12 hours ago, Cearbhall said:

Given the Vikings track record it is hard to blindly trust their guys evaluating the talent and coaching it. It would be a mistake to assume that Kline will be an average offensive linemen based on that. In fact, I don't see much to warrant assuming he'll be average.

That said, having him is better than not having anyone.

Personally, I would have given a Saffold two year $24M contract with a couple options years before I paid a Kline $15M for three years, but that is just me. Kline is the second highest paid lineman on the Vikings now. To me, that is just sad.

There are new coaches in place to do just that. These are the same coaches that have taken castoffs from other teams and made them into Pro Bowl caliber players. It's not just about talent but also what they do with it. Its a lot about the scheme. We should all understand how much a scheme change can effect the team just look how the Shumur offense was vs DeFillipo offense. Kline fits the scheme and Kline has had a lot of success before. While i don't think he will ever be more than a good starter but he doesn't need to be. He just needs to be a non-liability. Last year was a down year for him but it was a new system that didn't really suit him.  Kline gave up 4 sacks last year but 2 of those were in 1 game. He also gave up 34 pressures last year which is better than Remmers (5 & 42). On top of that in 2016 and 2017 when he was in a system that played to his strengths he was averaging 2.5 sacks with 22 pressures a year. And he has already said that the system we're going to be running is basically verbatim to his previous system in Tennessee.