Carson Wentz... or this haul?

[tyler735]

12 minutes ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

You say he was at best average and then cite all of the best rookie QB performances for the past 6 years. What about the number of rookie starters that would be placed below him? I believe you have proven my point.

Sure didn't prove your point.. 

That's the problem there are a number of rookie QB's that would be above him since 2012. As in he's maybe not even top 10 and if he is its right on the bubble. There aren't that many full time starting rookie QB's since 2012 so among those that would be considered a full time starting QB since 2012 he nowhere near the top of the list. That screams average to me..

[Danger]

Carson Wentz' rookie season is pretty irrelevant now don't you think?

[GreenMean69]

I still LOL  about how great there haul is ..... It Cost the Eagles a 1st  2nd and a 3rd to get what so far seems like our QB .  The Browns have already spent a 2nd a 3rd  on Qbs  and gave eagles a 5th .  Browns still dont have a QB so who knows how many more Picks it will take until they find one now ....  Who really cares how many times they trade back and water down there picks .... What gonna Happen when this youngest team in NFL all need new contracts at same time ?  LOL 

[GreenMean69]

3 hours ago, tyler735 said:

I'm a Saints fan, so I don't think my Black and Gold glasses are getting in the way here, but those pesky green ones sure seem to be doing a number on a certain fanbase involved in this trade LOL

The Gold is close enough to Brown    even more if you account how its been in NOLA

[BAConrad]

This might actually be the dumbest thing you've said so far. I rescind my previous statement. 

 

Watson, with 2 wins in 4.5 games, has procen

10 hours ago, tyler735 said:

You say Watson has proven next to nothing in this league. He's proven every bit as much as Wentz at this point.

 

Wentz was mediocre at best as a rookie.

The first part is actually the dumbest thing I've read so far in this thread filled with dumb things. Bravo. 

Listen, let me preface this by saying I love Watson. He was a fantastic QB prospect and I constantly said he deserved to go top 5 last year on the old board. And I'm super happy that many teams were dumb enough (including your team) to pass on him and let the Texans, a team that literally made the playoffs with Brock Osweiler as their QB, trade up and steal him. He is set up as well as he could be to succeed, and I even think he would be great anywhere.

 

But dude. He's played 4.5 games. Won 2. Wentz has played 21 games. And has won 11 of them. How can you possibly say that Watson has proven "just as much"?? I don't even....

 

The second part....not AS stupid as the previous statement but mediocre at best as a rookie?? He won 7 games with one of the worst set of skill players on offense around him and a rookie HC. And he wasn't even supposed to play that year until a freak injury to Bridgewater changed his whole career trajectory. 

You were probably one of the people who thought RGIII would be better than Luck after their rookie years. In fact Id bet money you were. Luck and Wentz were in slightly similar situations. Both had to carry the entire load on offense as rookies without much help on offense. Both made rookie mistakes. They're guys who aren't afraid to make mistakes. I won't get into it, but the whole *he threw more picks* argument is dead. Go and look at the top 5 QBs ever in INT % then look at the bottom 5. Seriously.  Great QBs sometimes throw more picks than we fans deem "acceptable" because they aren't afraid of pushing the ball down field and taking chances. Doesn't mean all of them do. But some sure. 

 

And you say Winston was one of the much better rookies???

 

Hmmm

 

2015 Jameis: 58.3% comp (312/535) 4042 yards 22 TD 15 INT

7.6 y/a 4.8 TD% And 2.8 INT% 

record 6-10

2016 Wentz: 62.4% comp (379/607) 3782 yards 16 TD 14 INT

6.2 y/a 2.6 TD% And 2.3 INT%

record 7-9

 

Winston had the edge in yards, not surprising given the playcalls each players coach ran. He also threw one more pick on way less attempts than Carson. 

 

And let's not forget about the supporting cast. Don't wanna go into to much detail but heres some stats for you:

In 2015, Doug Martin ran for 1,402 yards with 6 TDs and a 4.9 ypc 

Mike Evans led the team with 74 catches for 1200 yards and 3 TDs (his worst season IMO due somewhat to Winstons wildly inconsistent throws to him, trying to force the ball to him 148 times)

In 2016, Ryan Mathews ran for 668 yards for 8 TDs and a 4.3 ypc. That was Carson's leading rusher. 

Zach Ertz, our TE, was our best receiver. He had a nice year with 78 catches for 816 yards and 4 TDs.  

 

 

But it's hard to just take these stats at face value. Also consider that Winston had superior pass protection, a legit #1 WR AND legit #2 in VJ, and a top 5 run game. While Carson's best weapons were Ertz and Mathews, and an inferior run game. 

oddly, each QB scored an average of 1.85 pts per drive their rookie seasons.

And to compare their respective strength of schedules those years? 

Pro Football Reference uses a number to determine SOS by using the combined winning percentages of each teams opponents. Higher number, better opponents and vice versa.

 

The Eagles' was 1.55

 

The Bugs? Negative 3.02. 

There's so many factors that i could delve into deeper but you get the point. Jameis and Carson actually had very similarly solid to good rookie years. Only difference since, is that Jameis hasn't gotten better like we all thought he would. Even this season, Wentz has been vastly superior statistically as well as displaying a higher football IQ with incredible intangibles. Whereas Jameis looks...sort of like the same QB we saw 2 years ago. 

 

 

My point is, Carson's rookie year cannot be judged just by his yards and TD-INT ratio. Which is what you clearly do. There's a reason that all these football players and coaches have been singing his praises. And I don't mean the ones on his own team.

 

 

 

 

[Iamcanadian]

2 hours ago, Danger said:

Carson Wentz' rookie season is pretty irrelevant now don't you think?

Totally so, he is headed toward stardom, who really cares about the past. did anybody care that Peyton had a miserable rookie season or ditto for Eli. It is where they went from there that defines their careers.

[BAConrad]

29 minutes ago, Iamcanadian said:

Totally so, he is headed toward stardom, who really cares about the past. did anybody care that Peyton had a miserable rookie season or ditto for Eli. It is where they went from there that defines their careers.

Apparently rookie seasons define QBs. Browns fans that want to continue this charade that they made the right call in trading Wentz away will keep pointing to Wentz and his rookie year (which was above average for a rookie ironically). Not sure what they think that does for their case. Because what matters is the maturation of a young QB, the steps they take mentally pre snap and in the pocket, mechanics, etc. Aka development. And over 21 games, Carson's shown that he is self aware in that he can identify and fix his weaknesses. That's what makes young QBs into the great ones. 

 

 

But hey I  mean , DeShaun Watson has accomplished just as much as Wentz has though didn't u know that??? 4.5=21. Maths is fun

[footbull3196]

This thread gets dumber by the day

[GreenMean69]

So  The Eagles Got Wentz and a 5th round pick for a 1st  a 2nd and a 3rd .....  You Already Spent the 2nd and a 3rd on Qbs  but still dont have a Franchise  QB ... How many picks more is it going to take since they dont grow on trees .    You then to make you feel beter about trade  say well we turned those 3 picks into all these picks ... bla blah blah ... Then  Eagles can say  well since you gave us Wentz  we were able to turn Bradford into a first round pick because of trade .... So really  it only cost  Eagles  and 2nd and 3rd Pick  for  a Franchise QB that was #2 pick in draft  , plus  got a conditional 4th/5th round pick  to boot.    So who really won ?   So dont go thining you pulled off a Hershal Walker / RGIII  type deal

[tyler735]

8 hours ago, BAConrad said:

This might actually be the dumbest thing you've said so far. I rescind my previous statement. 

 

Watson, with 2 wins in 4.5 games, has procen

The first part is actually the dumbest thing I've read so far in this thread filled with dumb things. Bravo. 

Listen, let me preface this by saying I love Watson. He was a fantastic QB prospect and I constantly said he deserved to go top 5 last year on the old board. And I'm super happy that many teams were dumb enough (including your team) to pass on him and let the Texans, a team that literally made the playoffs with Brock Osweiler as their QB, trade up and steal him. He is set up as well as he could be to succeed, and I even think he would be great anywhere.

 

But dude. He's played 4.5 games. Won 2. Wentz has played 21 games. And has won 11 of them. How can you possibly say that Watson has proven "just as much"?? I don't even....

 

The second part....not AS stupid as the previous statement but mediocre at best as a rookie?? He won 7 games with one of the worst set of skill players on offense around him and a rookie HC. And he wasn't even supposed to play that year until a freak injury to Bridgewater changed his whole career trajectory. 

You were probably one of the people who thought RGIII would be better than Luck after their rookie years. In fact Id bet money you were. Luck and Wentz were in slightly similar situations. Both had to carry the entire load on offense as rookies without much help on offense. Both made rookie mistakes. They're guys who aren't afraid to make mistakes. I won't get into it, but the whole *he threw more picks* argument is dead. Go and look at the top 5 QBs ever in INT % then look at the bottom 5. Seriously.  Great QBs sometimes throw more picks than we fans deem "acceptable" because they aren't afraid of pushing the ball down field and taking chances. Doesn't mean all of them do. But some sure. 

 

And you say Winston was one of the much better rookies???

 

Hmmm

 

2015 Jameis: 58.3% comp (312/535) 4042 yards 22 TD 15 INT

7.6 y/a 4.8 TD% And 2.8 INT% 

record 6-10

2016 Wentz: 62.4% comp (379/607) 3782 yards 16 TD 14 INT

6.2 y/a 2.6 TD% And 2.3 INT%

record 7-9

 

Winston had the edge in yards, not surprising given the playcalls each players coach ran. He also threw one more pick on way less attempts than Carson. 

 

And let's not forget about the supporting cast. Don't wanna go into to much detail but heres some stats for you:

In 2015, Doug Martin ran for 1,402 yards with 6 TDs and a 4.9 ypc 

Mike Evans led the team with 74 catches for 1200 yards and 3 TDs (his worst season IMO due somewhat to Winstons wildly inconsistent throws to him, trying to force the ball to him 148 times)

In 2016, Ryan Mathews ran for 668 yards for 8 TDs and a 4.3 ypc. That was Carson's leading rusher. 

Zach Ertz, our TE, was our best receiver. He had a nice year with 78 catches for 816 yards and 4 TDs.  

 

 

But it's hard to just take these stats at face value. Also consider that Winston had superior pass protection, a legit #1 WR AND legit #2 in VJ, and a top 5 run game. While Carson's best weapons were Ertz and Mathews, and an inferior run game. 

oddly, each QB scored an average of 1.85 pts per drive their rookie seasons.

And to compare their respective strength of schedules those years? 

Pro Football Reference uses a number to determine SOS by using the combined winning percentages of each teams opponents. Higher number, better opponents and vice versa.

 

The Eagles' was 1.55

 

The Bugs? Negative 3.02. 

There's so many factors that i could delve into deeper but you get the point. Jameis and Carson actually had very similarly solid to good rookie years. Only difference since, is that Jameis hasn't gotten better like we all thought he would. Even this season, Wentz has been vastly superior statistically as well as displaying a higher football IQ with incredible intangibles. Whereas Jameis looks...sort of like the same QB we saw 2 years ago. 

 

 

My point is, Carson's rookie year cannot be judged just by his yards and TD-INT ratio. Which is what you clearly do. There's a reason that all these football players and coaches have been singing his praises. And I don't mean the ones on his own team.

 

 

 

 

Wow what a moronic post here by you..yet again..

Wentz wasn't good as a rookie. There's not much more to it than that. You can try to twist numbers as much as you'd like to fit your narrative, but it doesn't change the fact that he had an average year. He had a good start to his rookie season until about week 5 last season, then he started to struggle, which many rookies do, but the point is he was average at best. Look at his QB ratings after week 5: 77.7, 52.4, 91.4, 64.5, 86.7, 61.2, 75.5, 58.2, 86.7, 52.7, 70.1, 93.7.  

As I've stated NUMEROUS times he's shown quite a bit of improvement so far this season. 

However your argument is that wins should determine how good a player has been...Oh please..  What a flawed argument this shouldn't even have to be explained as football is a team sport and wins are a horrible marker for how one player has performed whether it's good or bad. 

By this logic Drew Brees hasn't been a top 10 QB the past few years because his teams have only had 7 wins each of the past 3 years... Sounds pretty moronic doesn't it..

Also my team drafted Marshon Lattimore, and currently has Drew Brees as their QB, so I don't know what you are trying to imply by saying your glad that my team passed on Watson...I'm a Saints fan..   I'm very excited for Lattimore as he already showing signs that he could be a special CB for us in the future, so yeah not sure where you're going with that one. Last I checked Brees is a pretty solid QB LOL

Then you state interceptions are an indicator that guys aren't afraid to make mistakes...DUMB. For every QB that works out for where they improve going forward with the interception numbers, there are several more that go on to bust horribly in the NFL with turnover issues. All of these guys were early picks that clearly "weren't afraid to make mistakes"... Josh Freeman, Mark Sanchez, Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder, Brandon Weeden, Geno Smith, EJ Manuel, etc. Another terrible logic as it certainly worked out well for them. LOL

I'm sorry I'm not part of the Wentz GREATEST QB HOF LOCK GOAT club after an average rookie year like so many Eagles fans apparently are at this point..

 

[THE DUKE]

Anyone who doesn't think the Browns made a huge mistake in passing on Wentz at this point has their eyes closed.

[BAConrad]

2 hours ago, tyler735 said:

However your argument is that wins should determine how good a player has been...Oh please..  What a flawed argument this shouldn't even have to be explained as football is a team sport and wins are a horrible marker for how one player has performed whether it's good or bad. 

 

Please please tell me where I said this.

 

 

I went and broke down Wentz's rookie year compared to Winstons (just usdd him as an example, no motive) with in depth statistics, analysis, context, strength of opponents, etc.

 

What do you do? You come at me with QB ratings by week to week? That's it? I mean come on dude. I objectively took the time and break down Wentz's season (And Jameis') to support my claim that Wentz didn't have a mediocre season. For a rookie QB, he had a solid to good year. You already admitted to not having watched him at all besides "watching all of his snaps on youtube". Which, btw, I highly doubt you did seeing as he threw it over 600 times. And then all you do is throw out his QB Rating game by game with zero context or anything else.

You're rubbish bro. I'm done wasting time. 

 

Everyone besides the select few browns fans all know that Cleveland made a mistake on Wentz. Their scouting department did a terrible job of evaluating him and it cost you a chance at a franchise QB. Again.

[tyler735]

12 minutes ago, BAConrad said:

Please please tell me where I said this.

 

 

I went and broke down Wentz's rookie year compared to Winstons (just usdd him as an example, no motive) with in depth statistics, analysis, context, strength of opponents, etc.

 

What do you do? You come at me with QB ratings by week to week? That's it? I mean come on dude. I objectively took the time and break down Wentz's season (And Jameis') to support my claim that Wentz didn't have a mediocre season. For a rookie QB, he had a solid to good year. You already admitted to not having watched him at all besides "watching all of his snaps on youtube". Which, btw, I highly doubt you did seeing as he threw it over 600 times. And then all you do is throw out his QB Rating game by game with zero context or anything else.

You're rubbish bro. I'm done wasting time. 

 

Everyone besides the select few browns fans all know that Cleveland made a mistake on Wentz. Their scouting department did a terrible job of evaluating him and it cost you a chance at a franchise QB. Again.

"But dude. He's played 4.5 games. Won 2. Wentz has played 21 games. And has won 11 of them. How can you possibly say that Watson has proven "just as much"??"

Thats the point they both haven't proven anything of note to this point other than having good 2017 seasons so far. However you tried to use wins as a metric of success in this example. My point in the previous post was to show how asinine that is.

Wow you spouted off a couple stats to try to twist the narrative in your favor what a comprehensive break down thank you for the enlightening post..

Bye buddy don't let the door hit you on the way out..

[MWil23]

2 hours ago, THE DUKE said:

Anyone who doesn't think the Browns made a huge mistake in passing on Wentz at this point has their eyes closed.

I'd still make the trade with the Eagles, but then NOT with the Titans (moving from 8 to 15), and then I'd draft one of the following:

*Conklin

*Leonard Floyd

*Taylor Decker

I'm still trying to picture a defense with Garrett and Floyd opposite one another, or with a bookend RT in Conklin/Decker opposite JT and the heir apparent replacement when he retires.

[SDotNova]

This is more of a draft philosophy question. The Browns have loaded up on draft picks and have picked QBs later in the draft. On the other hand, teams have moved up with the Browns to draft Wentz and Watson to be their franchise QB. Both those QBs seem like they will be at least solid starters.

I think it all depends on what the Browns do in the 2018 draft. If they land a potential franchise QB, then all is well in Cleveland. For now, give me the potential franchise QB.