1[12]: Rashan Gary [EDGE; Michigan]

[AlexGreen#20]

5 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

Eh I disagree, those are the intricacies of the game that go under appreciated to me. If he's put there in the 7 tech and his only assignment is to go balls to the wall after the QB every snap, sure. Calvin Johnson isn't winning anything other than a 9 on physical ability alone if his alignment pre-snap gives and advantage to the DB. Physical gifts only take you so far in the game, Gary was a pawn in that defense used to free up many other players, if he wasn't used that way, I highly doubt the Packers have the ability to select him at their pick. Whether our staff can teach him to be a playmaker instead of a glorified decoy will make or break the pick. 

My issue with this take is that it's not like he only played 7. He got a good number of pressure package snaps at the 9 and 3. Obviously college teams don't do it up like pro teams do in that regard, but the alignment argument only goes so far.

[Packerraymond]

48 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

My issue with this take is that it's not like he only played 7. He got a good number of pressure package snaps at the 9 and 3. Obviously college teams don't do it up like pro teams do in that regard, but the alignment argument only goes so far.

No but I think the over-arching theme is that he wasn't used as a playmaker in that system, Winovich and Bush were. Because of that he's raw, I'm sure most of his tech and indy work in practice revolved around what he's doing in the games, not what he needed to do to get drafted high. I think everything together creates why he wasn't productive. It wasn't the Michigan coaches job to get him sacks or ready for the pros, they determined that role was the best way for them to have a good defense, here we'll absolutely need him to create pressure and his indy and tech work will reflect that. This is one of those picks that reflect on the coaching staff more than Gute for me, he has all the tools and he gives effort, it's on you to make the pick hit.

If I saw him utilize an array of pass rush moves and get stone-walled I'd be more concerned, but 3/4 of his snaps are him bullrushing and another 1/8 he's using that 1 arm stab, which is pretty much a changeup to the bull rush. 10% of the time he's mixing it up from there with speed or a counter. The guy is just a ball of clay, luckily rush moves are something that can be taught.

[AlexGreen#20]

1 hour ago, Packerraymond said:

No but I think the over-arching theme is that he wasn't used as a playmaker in that system, Winovich and Bush were. Because of that he's raw, I'm sure most of his tech and indy work in practice revolved around what he's doing in the games, not what he needed to do to get drafted high. I think everything together creates why he wasn't productive. It wasn't the Michigan coaches job to get him sacks or ready for the pros, they determined that role was the best way for them to have a good defense, here we'll absolutely need him to create pressure and his indy and tech work will reflect that. This is one of those picks that reflect on the coaching staff more than Gute for me, he has all the tools and he gives effort, it's on you to make the pick hit.

If I saw him utilize an array of pass rush moves and get stone-walled I'd be more concerned, but 3/4 of his snaps are him bullrushing and another 1/8 he's using that 1 arm stab, which is pretty much a changeup to the bull rush. 10% of the time he's mixing it up from there with speed or a counter. The guy is just a ball of clay, luckily rush moves are something that can be taught.

I'm totally with you on this, but I think you're giving him a little bit too much of a pass. There's no DL guy that goes through practices without being taught some kind of rush moves on a fairly consistent basis. That's a staple of all of these practices. Even the NT types get taught the rush moves, not because it's a priority for them, but just because there's only so much you can do with coming off the ball low, and then there's another two hours of onfield practice left, so they work on the rush moves. 

For all the discussion about how he wasn't tapped to be the playmaker, there's a good number of these plays where guys are just told, "all of you, pin your ears back and go on this 3rd and 12." The lack of excellence in the pressure package situations is the part that concerns me. It's all a matter of percentages and there's no doubt Winovich was given the nod as the guy they were going to max his percentage of good opportunities, but Gary did get a few, and he didn't convert them at a rate you would like to see from a guy you drafted 12th overall. Though caveat, I may be overrating the historical excellence of prospects picked at 12.

Agreed completely that it's on the coaching staff to mold him into something. I just laugh at things like below acting like we drafted Reggie White in his prime and not a real project. 

On 7/8/2019 at 11:55 AM, boratt said:

If I had to summarize Gary’s game I would say speed, length, strength and explosion. I would add dominant as well. 

[cannondale]

If he's a good hitter, why doesn't he hit good ?

[Shanedorf]

I swiped this quote below from another thread, but its germane to the current conversation about Rashan Gary

The Packers defensive coordinator places a big premium on rushing the passer from the inside.
"That’s where it starts. It starts up front. People talk about the exterior pass rush, I think the interior pass rush is as important or maybe potentially more important,” Pettine said Thursday. “If you can be dominant inside, I think that has a ripple effect throughout your defense.”

The idea stems from improvements made by offenses in terms of taking away edge pass-rush. Teams can always chip an edge rusher, assign double teams or slide protection one way or another, but a strong rusher from the inside is harder to take away. Almost always, at least one interior rusher will face a single blocker.  “It’s much easier to negate an edge pass rusher than it is an inside dominant guy. You can force offenses to block them one-on-one,” Pettine said.
“Offenses have gotten very good at negating edge rushers.”

Gary's ability to play both outside & inside is part of what makes his skill set so valuable to Pettine/Montgomery  -  and Daniels, Clark & The Smiths are perfect tutors for Rashan to learn both roles. Gary is a younger version of ZSmith and by grabbing a top guy in FA and a top guy in the draft, GB doubled down on that player in this system while simultaneously providing the Prodigy with a Mentor. That's an amazing cache of resources that GB pumped into the combo Edge/Interior role this offseason.

When you look at the bigger picture of a flexible defender who can handle multiple roles, its exactly what Pettine craves and talks about all the time. 
Gary might not be the best Edge or the best interior DL, but he might be the best blend of both over the next few seasons.

[MrBobGray]

2 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

I'm totally with you on this, but I think you're giving him a little bit too much of a pass. There's no DL guy that goes through practices without being taught some kind of rush moves on a fairly consistent basis. That's a staple of all of these practices. Even the NT types get taught the rush moves, not because it's a priority for them, but just because there's only so much you can do with coming off the ball low, and then there's another two hours of onfield practice left, so they work on the rush moves. 

For all the discussion about how he wasn't tapped to be the playmaker, there's a good number of these plays where guys are just told, "all of you, pin your ears back and go on this 3rd and 12." The lack of excellence in the pressure package situations is the part that concerns me. It's all a matter of percentages and there's no doubt Winovich was given the nod as the guy they were going to max his percentage of good opportunities, but Gary did get a few, and he didn't convert them at a rate you would like to see from a guy you drafted 12th overall. Though caveat, I may be overrating the historical excellence of prospects picked at 12.

Agreed completely that it's on the coaching staff to mold him into something. I just laugh at things like below acting like we drafted Reggie White in his prime and not a real project. 

Gary definitely spends time practicing his pass rush, but there's a difference between honing a craft you rely on and learning a skill you rarely use.  Tough to really dial in how to attack a tackle when you do it so infrequently.  I don't disagree with you; my primary concern with Gary by far is the lack of development in his pass rush.  As well as he feels the game in some areas it's concerning to me that he wasn't able to put together some kind of repertoire.  You'd expect to see him win more than he did if he had developed at even an average rate.  

Still, his role in GB will be completely different than his role in college.  You don't take a guy 12th to set the edge as you've already noted, so he'll absolutely be given every opportunity to develop his game.  I like this chances but that's also me as a fan talking to some extent.

[vegas492]

13 hours ago, cannondale said:

If he's a good hitter, why doesn't he hit good ?

Couple running plays popped at me...when he hit the back, dude went backwards right away.  

I thought for a large man, he got pretty low on those tackles and had a lot of power behind him.

Was pretty surprised at his tackling ability, actually.  Then again, it was just 3 minutes of that film.

[ReadyToThump]

 

[boratt]

Reasons Gary will have a huge year:

 

Frank Clark and JJ Watt were two stout edge defenders with pass rush talent but had low production from the Big 10. Both excelled in the NFL because of greater pass rush opportunity. Gary is next. 

Gary has elite burst and speed and average bend. Paired with poor interior pass rush, this would lead to some near misses as the QB steps up. Paired with Clark, Zadarius and Daniels inside, this is gonna lead to QBs who can’t step up, so instead get thrown down. The interior rush amplified Gary’s speed rush. 

Garys power sets up his speed and his speed sets up his power. There has never been a player who measured both as big and fast as Gary. 

Gary has strength and length. Long arms are helpful. Strong, long arms even moreso. 

I’ve watched three full game tapes of Gary. He has a good speed rush, a very good bull rush, a special one arm inside jab and drive and a speed to power club move. He has those right now with no further development. 

Gary has probably the best player in the NFL to show him hand technique playing next to him in Zadarius Smith. Seeing Smith win consistently with calculated hand technique will push Gary to evolve his game. 

The Packers have 8 pass rushers who could get 5 sacks in a season right now. Z, Preston, Clark, Daniels, Gary, Fackrell, Adams and Lowry. He’s not starting. He’s going to be able to hone in as a fresh-legged pass rush specialist. And Gary’s game, being so fast and powerful to begin with will be amplified with fresh legs. 

Gary just started training to be an OLB. He’s cut his fat to 10% just in the time since we drafted him. He’s 21 years old, just hitting his stride as an athlete, and is still making gains. 

All reports suggest Gary is working his tail off to be the best! Guy seems to have a chip on his shoulder to dominate!

[boratt]

It’s exciting to see his training videos! This is on top of the game tape of watched and his record setting combine size/speed. 

Im more excited about Gary than I’ve been about a draft pick in the last 15 years!

[vegas492]

20 minutes ago, boratt said:

Reasons Gary will have a huge year:

 

Frank Clark and JJ Watt were two stout edge defenders with pass rush talent but had low production from the Big 10. Both excelled in the NFL because of greater pass rush opportunity. Gary is next. 

Gary has elite burst and speed and average bend. Paired with poor interior pass rush, this would lead to some near misses as the QB steps up. Paired with Clark, Zadarius and Daniels inside, this is gonna lead to QBs who can’t step up, so instead get thrown down. The interior rush amplified Gary’s speed rush. 

Garys power sets up his speed and his speed sets up his power. There has never been a player who measured both as big and fast as Gary. 

Gary has strength and length. Long arms are helpful. Strong, long arms even moreso. 

I’ve watched three full game tapes of Gary. He has a good speed rush, a very good bull rush, a special one arm inside jab and drive and a speed to power club move. He has those right now with no further development. 

Gary has probably the best player in the NFL to show him hand technique playing next to him in Zadarius Smith. Seeing Smith win consistently with calculated hand technique will push Gary to evolve his game. 

The Packers have 8 pass rushers who could get 5 sacks in a season right now. Z, Preston, Clark, Daniels, Gary, Fackrell, Adams and Lowry. He’s not starting. He’s going to be able to hone in as a fresh-legged pass rush specialist. And Gary’s game, being so fast and powerful to begin with will be amplified with fresh legs. 

Gary just started training to be an OLB. He’s cut his fat to 10% just in the time since we drafted him. He’s 21 years old, just hitting his stride as an athlete, and is still making gains. 

All reports suggest Gary is working his tail off to be the best! Guy seems to have a chip on his shoulder to dominate!

Again, dig your optimism.

I too love seeing those training videos.

[boratt]

Not to keep beating a dead horse, but this was from an article by Bob McGinn about 7 guys who will probably be gone by pick 12. 

“Looks pretty good to me,” one scout said. “Can do a lot of things. Athletic, tough, strong, versatile. Some of that (minimal production) was how he was used schematically. You just have to go by the eyeball test. Just watch the tape. You see everything.”

 

Same thing I’m saying. Same.

 

And Gary keeps making it more exciting because I can literally see him cut body fat in just the few months since he was drafted. His unworldly body isn’t even close to maxed out. And his workout tapes  are fun to watch too. Dude is just chomping at the bit to be the best. I’m a fan. 

[Shanedorf]

 

[MrBobGray]

5 hours ago, Shanedorf said:

 

It's funny because he doesn't look that big, until you realize that's all 6'6", 300 lbs of Dean Lowry next to him and they look about the same size. I understand perspective and they may not even be next to each other, but boy Gary is not a small man. 

[deathstar]

6 hours ago, MrBobGray said:

It's funny because he doesn't look that big, until you realize that's all 6'6", 300 lbs of Dean Lowry next to him and they look about the same size. I understand perspective and they may not even be next to each other, but boy Gary is not a small man. 

Our edge is going to look a lot different next year, for better or worse.