OTA's/Minicamp/Training Camp Discussion Thread

[y2lamanaki]

1 hour ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

So reading Barrows player by player breakdown, he says this about Buckner:

Is he though? Like I love Buckner, but I don't think it is that cut and dry to say he is better than Jones. Buckner definitely wasn't better last season. Both are on similar level talent wise I would say.

Buckner is the 2nd best DT in the league, and has somehow been seriously underrated even on this forum. I agree with Barrows. I think this year people will really see Buckner for who he truly is. 

Everyone seems to agree with the idea that good edge rushers help interior linemen, and then always seem to fail to factor in who has played next to Buckner in his career compared with who guys like Jones, Cox, etc. have had playing with them on their defensive lines. 

[J-ALL-DAY]

1 minute ago, y2lamanaki said:

Buckner is the 2nd best DT in the league, and has somehow been seriously underrated even on this forum. I agree with Barrows. I think this year people will really see Buckner for who he truly is. 

Everyone seems to agree with the idea that good edge rushers help interior linemen, and then always seem to fail to factor in who has played next to Buckner in his career compared with who guys like Jones, Cox, etc. have had playing with them on their defensive lines. 

I don't know if he has been underrated to be honest. For the most part has been rated properly. I personally felt he was better in 2017 opposed to last season despite the 12 sacks. I mean he could even better this year while getting less sacks. But Jones was flat out ridiculous rushing the passer last year. Like AMAZINGLY good and closest to Donald in the entire league in that area. Buckner hasn't shown THAT type of dominance yet. Now, the supporting cast along the DL will be better for Buckner, so maybe he takes it to even another level. I don't know, but I just can't flat out say Buckner is the better of the two like Barrows said. Similar level? Sure, but nothing we have seen thus far shows that Buckner is the superior player. 

[y2lamanaki]

18 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

I don't know if he has been underrated to be honest. For the most part has been rated properly. I personally felt he was better in 2017 opposed to last season despite the 12 sacks. I mean he could even better this year while getting less sacks. But Jones was flat out ridiculous rushing the passer last year. Like AMAZINGLY good and closest to Donald in the entire league in that area. Buckner hasn't shown THAT type of dominance yet. Now, the supporting cast along the DL will be better for Buckner, so maybe he takes it to even another level. I don't know, but I just can't flat out say Buckner is the better of the two like Barrows said. Similar level? Sure, but nothing we have seen thus far shows that Buckner is the superior player. 

The bolded is precisely why he is underrated. I've seen plenty to suggest he is a superior player. But the fact that others (most) don't makes him underrated if he is the superior player I say he is.

I agree that 2017 Buckner looked better than 2018 Buckner. We all know 2017 Buckner's stats are low because of an absolutely absurd amount of near sacks. That's bad luck. But 2017 Buckner also played on the best defensive line of his career - one that featured end of career-Elvis Dumervil and non-traumatized-Solomon Thomas. And that was the best defensive line he had in his first 3 years. Last year, every team's offensive gameplan was simple: block Buckner and that's about the extent of it. Chris Jones played on a defensive line where every player was able to get to the QB more often than our second best guy. Offenses could not key in on only one as they very obviously could with us. Despite all this, his gross stats (not the end-all/be-all as 2017 shows) resulted in like 3 fewer sacks, 2 fewer tackles for loss, and a handful fewer quarterback hits. 

The addition of Ford and Bosa to funnel more toward him will show how truly great he is. And I don't think I am really going out on a limb to suggest he will be an all-pro, health permitting. I get why you and others haven't seen it yet. But I think going into 2020 we will happily be on the same page.

[J-ALL-DAY]

22 minutes ago, y2lamanaki said:

The bolded is precisely why he is underrated. I've seen plenty to suggest he is a superior player. But the fact that others (most) don't makes him underrated if he is the superior player I say he is.

I agree that 2017 Buckner looked better than 2018 Buckner. We all know 2017 Buckner's stats are low because of an absolutely absurd amount of near sacks. That's bad luck. But 2017 Buckner also played on the best defensive line of his career - one that featured end of career-Elvis Dumervil and non-traumatized-Solomon Thomas. And that was the best defensive line he had in his first 3 years. Last year, every team's offensive gameplan was simple: block Buckner and that's about the extent of it. Chris Jones played on a defensive line where every player was able to get to the QB more often than our second best guy. Offenses could not key in on only one as they very obviously could with us. Despite all this, his gross stats (not the end-all/be-all as 2017 shows) resulted in like 3 fewer sacks, 2 fewer tackles for loss, and a handful fewer quarterback hits. 

The addition of Ford and Bosa to funnel more toward him will show how truly great he is. And I don't think I am really going out on a limb to suggest he will be an all-pro, health permitting. I get why you and others haven't seen it yet. But I think going into 2020 we will happily be on the same page.

No doubt he has more talent than he's ever had around him, but still I stick to my position....Buckner has not shown he is the better player yet. You can similar level but can't out right say Buckner is better. Could it change? Sure, and obviously I would love for it change since it would mean Buckner is taking his game to yet another level while the team is benefiting from it. 

[757-NINER]

I will say this...I luv me some DeFo. But Jones from a pass-rushing perspective is just better at this point. Better first step, displays more power with his bull-rush, better with his hands, plays with better leverage...he's just more polished. That's not a knock on DeFo at all because I believe he is still developing. But I have seen few 6'6 310 lbs guys be as nimble, yet explosive out of their stance like Jones. You couldn't go wrong with either guy. 

But those 15 sacks are misleading though. With the Chiefs high-powered offense last year, their defense was put in more situations where they were rushing the passer, as teams were often behind or trying to keep pace with their offense. I don't think DeFo was in those same type of scenarios nearly as often. In fact, I know he wasn't....

 

Edited July 23, 2019 by 757-NINER

[John232]

This thread triggers me. Only DT's currently better than Defo are Cox and Donald. Rankins, Jones, Atkins, McCoy, Jarrett all fall behind Buckner. 

[J-ALL-DAY]

Quote

 

Weakest unit

49ers: One cornerback, Ahkello Witherspoon, might have been the 49ers’ best defensive player of the spring while the other, Richard Sherman, is in significantly better shape than he was last year when he was returning from a pair of Achilles ailments. But what happens if one gets hurt? Behind them, the team has Verrett and a lot of unproven commodities. With Verrett out this spring, the 49ers had two cornerbacks they’ve already cycled through — Greg Mabin and Dontae Johnson — in the backup roles.

 

Interesting, Barrows went CB over S here. There are even more injury concerns at the safety position and we have no idea the type of depth we have. I mean he should have just said secondary as an whole and left it there lol.

8 minutes ago, John232 said:

This thread triggers me. Only DT's currently better than Defo are Cox and Donald. Rankins, Jones, Atkins, McCoy, Jarrett all fall behind Buckner. 

Stay triggered then. And Hicks is definitely up there as well. 

[757-NINER]

25 minutes ago, John232 said:

This thread triggers me. Only DT's currently better than Defo are Cox and Donald. Rankins, Jones, Atkins, McCoy, Jarrett all fall behind Buckner. 

Jones is every bit as good as DeFo. DeFo still has technical flaws in his game that prevents him from being a truly dominant player. Jones is just more polished imo, as a pass-rusher/pocket disruptor.  Doesn't mean DeFo isn't great because I would group him with Jones. Just means they're both great. I do think DeFo is slightly better versus the run.

And I would definitely say Hicks is better than both....dude is a monster. 

Edited July 24, 2019 by 757-NINER

[John232]

Defo is better than Jones against the run and pass. I'd say Defo is a little more undisciplined than Jones and is susceptible to getting gashed at points..but nothing I've seen from Jones would make me take him over Defo, or even think about it.  

 

Hicks was a good call, definitely a case to be made for Hicks..though I'd still lean Defo. But that's closer than Defo and Jones imo. 

 

Conversation also changes a fair amount if we're separating hard nose tackles. 

 

Edit: My list:

1. Donald

2. Cox

3A Buckner

3B Hicks 

5. Jones

6. Jarrett

7. Kenny Clark

8.Harrison

9 Joseph

10.  Sheldon Rankins

Edited July 24, 2019 by John232

[J-ALL-DAY]

26 minutes ago, John232 said:

Defo is better than Jones against the run and pass. I'd say Defo is a little more undisciplined than Jones and is susceptible to getting gashed at points..but nothing I've seen from Jones would make me take him over Defo, or even think about it.  

 

Hicks was a good call, definitely a case to be made for Hicks..though I'd still lean Defo. But that's closer than Defo and Jones imo. 

 

Conversation also changes a fair amount if we're separating hard nose tackles. 

 

Edit: My list:

1. Donald

2. Cox

3A Buckner

3B Hicks 

5. Jones

6. Jarrett

7. Kenny Clark

8.Harrison

9 Joseph

10.  Sheldon Rankins

Buckner has not shown to be definitely better than Jones against the pass. Sorry, that just hasn't happened. If you want to say that's because Jones has had more talented supporting cast? That's fine, but so far Jones has shown he is every bit of Buckner's equal. And I'm not totally sure Buckner has proven to be better against the run either. Both make a lot of explosive stops behind the LOS but also can be taken out of the play from time to time. 

Hicks isn't as good as Buckner or Jones rushing the passer, but he is FAR superior against the run. 

Clark is the up and coming interior DL that could end up making another big leap this upcoming season. 

[757-NINER]

3 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Buckner has not shown to be definitely better than Jones against the pass. Sorry, that just hasn't happened. If you want to say that's because Jones has had more talented supporting cast? That's fine, but so far Jones has shown he is every bit of Buckner's equal. And I'm not totally sure Buckner has proven to be better against the run either. Both make a lot of explosive stops behind the LOS but also can be taken out of the play from time to time. 

Hicks isn't as good as Buckner or Jones rushing the passer, but he is FAR superior against the run. 

Clark is the up and coming interior DL that could end up making another big leap this upcoming season. 

Yea I think ppl just haven't watched Jones enough. From a pass-rushing perspective, he does things from a explosion and quickness standpoint I've yet to see from DeFo. Some of the best feet and hands you'll see from a player his size. And he's done it starting only 29 of his 48 games as a pro where DeFo has started every game he has played in, so one could say he's had more opportunities to put up the numbers he has. 

[J-ALL-DAY]

4 minutes ago, 757-NINER said:

Yea I think ppl just haven't watched Jones enough. From a pass-rushing perspective, he does things from a explosion and quickness standpoint I've yet to see from DeFo. Some of the best feet and hands you'll see from a player his size. And he's done it starting only 29 of his 48 games as a pro where DeFo has started every game he has played in, so one could say he's had more opportunities to put up the numbers he has. 

For sure, Jones' quickness for his size is amazing. Buckner wins a lot of times with his hands. I think Buckner is going to have another dominant season and could potentially be an DPOY candidate if the defense is top 10-12. The team should be winning more than the prior seasons so he will have more obvious pass rushing situations. Even last year, Buckner had 567 pass rushing snaps opposed to 516 for Jones. But the difference was that the Chiefs for leading far more than the Niners. 

@Forge Is there any site that gives you stats on when the sacks took place for these DL? Like how many of Jones 15 sacks were in 1st Q, 2nd Q etc? 

[John232]

lol, i've watched plenty of Jones. I just disagree with both of your assessments. It's a splitting hair argument, but I think what Buckner has done is absolutely incredible when you consider the incredible lack of talent. 

And there's guys we also didn't mention either: Casey, Hayward..Shortt. Kind of in a golden age for IDL play. 

[Forge]

1 minute ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

For sure, Jones' quickness for his size is amazing. Buckner wins a lot of times with his hands. I think Buckner is going to have another dominant season and could potentially be an DPOY candidate if the defense is top 10-12. The team should be winning more than the prior seasons so he will have more obvious pass rushing situations. Even last year, Buckner had 567 pass rushing snaps opposed to 516 for Jones. But the difference was that the Chiefs for leading far more than the Niners. 

@Forge Is there any site that gives you stats on when the sacks took place for these DL? Like how many of Jones 15 sacks were in 1st Q, 2nd Q etc? 

Pro Football reference usually does a good job with splits, and in a lot of cases, by quarter (as evidenced by the Mullens stats I provided earlier). But weirdly, it doesn't seem like they have the splits on the defensive side of the football broken down by quarter. It's a really curious thing. NFL.com is the same. Not sure why that is. 

 

[Forge]

11 minutes ago, John232 said:

 

And there's guys we also didn't mention either: Casey, Hayward..Shortt. Kind of in a golden age for IDL play. 

This. Let's not forget Fletcher Cox. Hicks has been shredding offenses for a while now, though he's not the pass rushing type specifically. Oh, and there's still Geno out there in Cincy. He's being held down by a truly awful defense around him, but that dude is still amazing. Kenny Clark isn't on the same level as most of these guys, but still high quality. Cam Heyward. Oh, and there's some JJ Watt dude that will still play on the interior or outside. 

Fun note - USA today ranked the top 11 interior defensive linemen in football last month, and Buckner didn't even make that list LOLOL. Which is insane. 

Athlon sports rated Buckner third with regards to defensive tackles, but they were more scheme specific. Donald wasn't included on that list because he's technically a 3-4 DE in the Rams system right now, even though we know that he would play a 4-3 DT. Same for Watt, Hicks and Heyward. The only two rated above Buckner were Cox and Jones.