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champ11

NBA GDT | '19-'20 | All Hail King Zion !!!

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1 hour ago, Bullet Club said:

He's clearly declined and is on a team that has holes everywhere. You need a prime Dwight type guy to make up for that and  that's not his style of play. He's not an elite rim protector but he is an all time great PNR defender which is arguably as important in the modern NBA. The numbers show that the D with/without him paint him as huge impact guy on D (less so now). His offense has always been that of a 4th/5th option and it's getting worse. I never bought into him being a top 10 guy like some true analytics fans but at his best he was clearly one of the best role players ever and a top 20 guy in terms of impact. Current Draymond is closer to a top 50ish player.

Look at the impact numbers.

2013-2014: #1 Defensive PF (#12 overall), +4.9 OnCourt

2014-2015 #1 Defensive PF (#1 Overall), +16.1 OnCourt (2nd on team to Steph)

2015-2016: #1 Defensive PF (#3 overall), +18.5 OnCourt (1st on Team)

2016-2017: #1 Defensive PF (#2 overall), +15.9 OnCourt (2nd on team to Steph)

2017-2018: #3 Defensive PF (#12 Overall), +6.8 OnCourt 

2018-2019: #1 Defensive PF (#4 Overall), +10.5 OnCourt (3rd to Steph/KD)

It's pretty difficult to make the argument that he's fluked his way into being the most impactful defensive 4 in the NBA 5/6 years and routinely put up better +/- numbers than every Warriors outside of Curry.

but I am agreeing that within the system he was great on D, the Warriors entire defense was always a well oiled machine where everybody had great chemistry. In a defense where w/ starters you had 5 competent defenders doing their job in a very well coached, team oriented defense, Draymond was able to shine above the rest thanks to his tenacity and IQ, and that does mean something... However, it's hard to rate you as a player, and call you top 25 at any point, if you NEED such specific, optimal, circumstances to be effective. Is "prime" Draymond getting all-Defense 1st team nods if he was ANYWHERE else? (although this talk of "prime" Draymond as a thing of the past is a bit of BS to me, he is 29 w/ no major injuries, why would he not still be in his prime? His prime production has passed, yes.... which only seems to strengthen the argument that he was the product of a system). That's my question. 

 

To be clear, I am saying Draymond brings to the table a very niche set of talents, nothing special, but unique. It just so happened to be a match made in heaven in GSW, and during that run he was definitely a top tier disruptor on D, but I am questioning if we even remember this guy if he didn't happen to fall into the role that he did. Being a great PNR defender has relatively little impact unless the other 4 guys are all on the same page, compare that to protecting the rim, disrupting passing lanes, or locking guys down in ISO situations, where you can readily recognize such contributions and they can carry value even if the 4 guys around you aren't carrying their weight. 

 

If Draymond was an elite defender, why wouldn't the On/Off court numbers still paint him in a good light? Seems the Warriors starting unit as a whole was just pretty dominant, hence why Curry, Klay and then KD also had amazing on/off court numbers. I wouldn't put too much stock into Draymond happening to edge them out a few times. Case in point: Giannis is without a doubt the Bucks best player and carries an insane +16.8 On/Off right now.... His teammate Wesley Matthews? +17.9.

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3 hours ago, RandyMossIsBoss said:

but I am agreeing that within the system he was great on D, the Warriors entire defense was always a well oiled machine where everybody had great chemistry. In a defense where w/ starters you had 5 competent defenders doing their job in a very well coached, team oriented defense, Draymond was able to shine above the rest thanks to his tenacity and IQ, and that does mean something... However, it's hard to rate you as a player, and call you top 25 at any point, if you NEED such specific, optimal, circumstances to be effective. Is "prime" Draymond getting all-Defense 1st team nods if he was ANYWHERE else? (although this talk of "prime" Draymond as a thing of the past is a bit of BS to me, he is 29 w/ no major injuries, why would he not still be in his prime? His prime production has passed, yes.... which only seems to strengthen the argument that he was the product of a system). That's my question. 

 

To be clear, I am saying Draymond brings to the table a very niche set of talents, nothing special, but unique. It just so happened to be a match made in heaven in GSW, and during that run he was definitely a top tier disruptor on D, but I am questioning if we even remember this guy if he didn't happen to fall into the role that he did. Being a great PNR defender has relatively little impact unless the other 4 guys are all on the same page, compare that to protecting the rim, disrupting passing lanes, or locking guys down in ISO situations, where you can readily recognize such contributions and they can carry value even if the 4 guys around you aren't carrying their weight. 

 

If Draymond was an elite defender, why wouldn't the On/Off court numbers still paint him in a good light? Seems the Warriors starting unit as a whole was just pretty dominant, hence why Curry, Klay and then KD also had amazing on/off court numbers. I wouldn't put too much stock into Draymond happening to edge them out a few times. Case in point: Giannis is without a doubt the Bucks best player and carries an insane +16.8 On/Off right now.... His teammate Wesley Matthews? +17.9.

I mean I disagree with most of the premises you are tossing out. He's not a system player, he is the system. His elite D pre-dates the the Warriors dynasty. I don't know how it could be the system when he was already doing his thing before Klay was an All Star, before Steph was an MVP, without Durant and for two different coaches.They thrived on D because he allowed them to. His PNR D and ability to cover mistakes made everyone else better and is significantly more impactful than you're giving credit for. You can point to it not being the same as rim protection but he's still an excellent man and help defender regardless. He doesn't need specific circumstances to be a huge impact guy on D and I don't see evidence saying he does. Offensively? Absolutely. Throw him in another system and his offensive impact would crater no doubt. Without the spacing and creation provided by Steph/Klay/Durant he's a homeless man's Boris Diaw on O.

I can't think of a team where he wouldn't have made a huge impact defensively. Would he garner the same respect as he would being on the Warriors dynasty? No, but that's just how it works. He'd still be a massive plus on that end and be leading someone else to a great D. His On/Off numbers do paint him in a good light every year except this season. He beats Klay most of the team and dominates him in the postseason. His postseason On/Off numbers are literally amazing. #2, #1, #1, #2, #3, #1.  Like I said, you don't luck into having the top defensive impact at your position 5/6 years. As far as his decline goes, everyone ages differently. Serge Ibaka peaked at like 24. Draymond admitted he was out of shape the majority of last season. He's 29 with the workload of someone who is in their early 30's because of the deep postseason runs. It happens.

Edited by Bullet Club

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5 hours ago, RandyMossIsBoss said:

What do people make of Draymond Green?  Top 25 player? Top 50? Glorified role player? Has your opinion of him changed at all from last year?

Unsurprisingly putting up pretty porous #s in an offense w/out Curry, Klay and/or KD. His DRtg of 109 is on pace to be worst in his career... but nobody ever thought of him as a #1, or even #2, option when they called him a top 20 player or gave him all-NBA recognition. The caveat all along was that he was just the ultimate complimentary piece due to his defensive versatility and prowess, and good b-ball IQ on offense.... of course, that’s a pretty big caveat, needing 2 all stars to make your presence felt. Rodman, a guy often compared to Draymond in terms of being a great player despite lackluster offense, was at least still owning the glass and spearheading good defenses for the handful of bad teams he played for (his last year in Detroit and Dallas season). Granted Rodman never played on a team as devoid as talent as the current Warriors.

 

 

I’m beginning to think Draymond was a manufactured star all along. Just ended up in the perfect scenario for him to shine. Everyone suspected his offense was the product of being surrounded by stars, but I think his D was as well. Draymond isn’t a rim protector, he was never locking guys out on the 3 pt line. He was just a guy with a high motor and good IQ that thrived in the Warriors fundamentally sound, well oiled team defense, one where everyone was on the same page and he was allowed to kind of swarm around or not be left in 1v1 scenarios.

 

Many always thought of Green as overrated, but I think it goes beyond not being a top 25 player. I legitimately question if he has ever even been even a starter level player in the NBA when you look at his game. No doubt his leadership was invaluable to the GSW dynasty, so I wouldn’t say they win 3 w/ just any athletic PF in his role.

 

Maybe this is just an overreaction though? I mean he is truly playing alongside garbage:

He’s an elite 4th man/ancillary piece but I wouldn’t want to count on him for anymore than that. That’s why I never considered him a top 15 or so player in the league, he’s not a building block.

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1 hour ago, amac said:

I’m beginning to think Draymond was a manufactured star all along

Lol, he’s always been a fraud.

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Stupid refs don't understand basic physics. Ball comes rocketing towards the ground and from the only angle they have it looks like it goes off Mikal's head (it's lined up perfectly) but his head doesn't move at all. It obviously goes out on DeMar's knee which is right behind Mikal's head. And we lose.

Edit: just saw a fan's video and it went out on Mikal lol

And they also called the ball out on Baynes when it obviously went out on LA and then didn't review it and called two Ts on the Suns for arguing it. In the last two min of regulation. 

Edited by 11sanchez11

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10 minutes ago, 11sanchez11 said:

Stupid refs don't understand basic physics. Ball comes rocketing towards the ground and from the only angle they have it looks like it goes off Mikal's head (it's lined up perfectly) but his head doesn't move at all. It obviously goes out on DeMar's knee which is right behind Mikal's head. And we lose.

And they also called the ball out on Baynes when it obviously went out on LA and then didn't review it and called two Ts on the Suns for arguing it. In the last two min of regulation. 

Pure robbery but I ain’t mad.  We played well.

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I don't remember who said Dallas has a bunch of Scrubs besides Luka. Down by 27 without Luca they come charging back and take the lead against Miami. Regardless of today's outcome that is by far one of the best coach teams I've seen in awhile. One can make the argument Rick Carlisle is as good as Popovich or even better right now. Other than porzingis those role players all played at role perfectly.

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