2018 Draft thread - PICK THE FASTEST GUY AVAILABLE

[NightTrainLane]

2 hours ago, NJ Raider said:

So I just watched some YouTube clips of vea and I would not be upset if we took him. He really is an immovable object. Think he could get better using his hands though. Seems like most of the time he engages, reads, and works his way down the line of scrimmage. Not necessarily a a bad thing, just an observation. Could be by design though.

Then I checked out Tim Settle. Very impressed by him and could be had at least a round cheaper. This guy may not be stronger than vea but def quicker off the snap and looks like more of a penetrator. Definitely uses his hands well and knifes through his gap. Also plays with a lower base and avoids cut blocks well.  Would take either one gladly because they would both help us, but I came away more impressed with settle especially considering his price. Just my two cents.

I agree about Settle as a penetrate and push guy. Really impressive. He is someone I like if we don't get our man in the middle early. Consistently disruptive and powerful. Takes on double teams. I see him as a late riser as teams get a better look at him. But will still be a value pick guy as long as nothing bad comes out in the pre draft process.

[big_palooka]

9 hours ago, NightTrainLane said:

He didn't say anything about standards. It's was a clear point about play performance being better.

And yes, Pagano did do something. If you can't recognize that I don't know what to say to you. Even if the offenses were lesser than the ones we faced earlier, he put players in better position to succeed than KNJ did.

Not saying Pagano didn't improve things by simplifying them. He took a bad unit and made them below average. So I am not going use that as reasoning to keep bad players like Amerson.

That said, I trust this staff to take out the trash on this roster. 

[Rolni]

17 hours ago, oakdb36 said:

I'd cut Smith and Amerson and re-sign Carrie.

This is where I'm at too. Hopefully Carrie can be brought back for a reasonable deal. He was our best CB last season and I think he showed versatility and availability during his first 4 years with us.

He could be an emergency #2 or a solid #3 IMO.

I would try to get Rashaad Melvin to come in and play CB for us. I know he will probably ask for lots of money and has only limited success to back it up, but if the market is not that crazy for him, we might be able to get him either on a prove it deal on an up and coming team, or on a reasonable deal for 3-4 years with the 1st and maybe the 2nd with guaranteed salary.

Then draft a guy in the middle rounds also.

Conley-Melvin-Carrie-rookie-McDonald/Hamilton/UDFA could be a really nice group

[NightTrainLane]

4 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Not saying Pagano didn't improve things by simplifying them. He took a bad unit and made them below average. So I am not going use that as reasoning to keep bad players like Amerson.

That said, I trust this staff to take out the trash on this roster. 

Amerson isn't a bad player IMO if he is healthy and used correctly.

That said I think we'll be changing the scheme and way we use our corners and I don't think Amerson will be a fit anymore.

And like you said, I trust the staff adjust the roster accordingly.

 

[big_palooka]

3 hours ago, Rolni said:

This is where I'm at too. Hopefully Carrie can be brought back for a reasonable deal. He was our best CB last season and I think he showed versatility and availability during his first 4 years with us.

He could be an emergency #2 or a solid #3 IMO.

I would try to get Rashaad Melvin to come in and play CB for us. I know he will probably ask for lots of money and has only limited success to back it up, but if the market is not that crazy for him, we might be able to get him either on a prove it deal on an up and coming team, or on a reasonable deal for 3-4 years with the 1st and maybe the 2nd with guaranteed salary.

Then draft a guy in the middle rounds also.

Conley-Melvin-Carrie-rookie-McDonald/Hamilton/UDFA could be a really nice group

Carrie as a nickel corner at the right price is I could agree with. 

Melvin is an interesting name. He's been a nobody since entering the league in 2013 and found some success this past season. Is it sustainable is the question. 

[big_palooka]

2 minutes ago, NightTrainLane said:

Amerson isn't a bad player IMO if he is healthy and used correctly.

That said I think we'll be changing the scheme and way we use our corners and I don't think Amerson will be a fit anymore.

And like you said, I trust the staff adjust the roster accordingly.

 

Guenther likes CBs who can play press man coverage. Does that help or hurt Amerson? 

[SinCity]

25 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Guenther likes CBs who can play press man coverage. Does that help or hurt Amerson? 

I would say that helps Amerson. It also helps Smith as well as I would say that both are better in press man.

However, I would consider cutting Amerson anyway as he has had 3 concussions in the last 18 months or so - I am no Doctor, but that seems like a pattern and that is $6m of cap sitting in the medical room.

[StocktonSav]

3 hours ago, Rolni said:

This is where I'm at too. Hopefully Carrie can be brought back for a reasonable deal. He was our best CB last season and I think he showed versatility and availability during his first 4 years with us.

He could be an emergency #2 or a solid #3 IMO.

I would try to get Rashaad Melvin to come in and play CB for us. I know he will probably ask for lots of money and has only limited success to back it up, but if the market is not that crazy for him, we might be able to get him either on a prove it deal on an up and coming team, or on a reasonable deal for 3-4 years with the 1st and maybe the 2nd with guaranteed salary.

Then draft a guy in the middle rounds also.

Conley-Melvin-Carrie-rookie-McDonald/Hamilton/UDFA could be a really nice group

It will be interesting what the FA market for CBs looks like. There seems to be more starter level players available than normal which hopefully will keep prices down. By FA standards at least. Trumain Johnson seems to be the one CB guaranteed a big contract. Then there's a 2nd tier with players like Butler, Breeland, Colvin and probably also Melvin. Hard to say what the going rate will be. Hopefully the more affordable options in the next tier (Amukamara, Fuller, Grimes, Joseph, Claiborne, and Carrie) will keep contracts reasonable.

[NightTrainLane]

Just now, big_palooka said:

Guenther likes CBs who can play press man coverage. Does that help or hurt Amerson? 

So you think Amerson is a "bad player" and don't even know his preferred style of play or where he can be the most successful?

His best year with the redskin and with us was playing press man.

Guenther also said that he will put players in the best position to succeed and didn't commit to 3-4 or 4-3.

They brought in a DB coach that has run a pattern matching scheme, a part man and part zone coverage.

 

[holyghost]

I must be in the minority but I'd like to see this team keep Smith (cheaper if possible) and shed Amerson and Carrie. Amerson is decent, when he feels like it. Exactly the kind of player the Raiders used to have tons of when they were the worst team on earth, and exactly the kind of player good teams stay miles away from. Carrie is utterly average. The exact kind of guy you CAN'T go ahead and pay when your team starts to accumulate top end contracts like Carr's and soon Mack's. Smith at least is a professional and has a sustained record of success when used properly. A more solid player game in and game out on a long term basis than both of the others. Our issues with him are twofold - horrifying usage under Norton, and his contract. If Guenther has a brain, Smith can do well like he did under Pagano. And if Smith cost 4 mil and not 8 mil most fans wouldn't be calling for his ouster. 

This is a bit of a complex issue. What I really think is the right thing is to get rid of all of them - Nelson, Smith, Amerson, Carrie, McDonald, Hamilton. Nothing about any of them say they are necessary or a potential part of a top secondary. But it's not at all practical to lose 6 of your 10 guys in the secondary in one offseason and have the remaining 4 all be second year players, two of whom barely played and are entirely question marks, and one third year guy. Taking that into account, there's things you just can't do in who you shed and how many. One thing is to pay a guy like Carrie. If there's any competition for him, it'll simply cost too much. It's possible it could work for the team if it was a one year deal, but who in their right mind thinks he'll take a one year deal here? Nor do I think he is any sort of key piece. And you can't lose him, then cut Smith, and have Amerson be a key piece. Who is not dependable when dependable is what is needed. So by that logic I say stick with Smith for a year and lose the rest, other than Hamilton, maybe. Not Hamilton on merit, just for continuity. It can't be McDonald who stays because he is so utterly unqualified. Gotta spread an overhaul like this over 2 offseasons. Sign a corner, draft a corner, sign a safety, maybe draft a safety. 

 

Also complicating matters is the legal issue Smith has, which is significant if there's any merit to it. This secondary is a pickle this year.

[Trojan]

Smith's biggest issue is obviously the 4th of July incident with the pending hearing. Best trait is availability thing is real when he could be in prison for assault. If it's found he was defending his sister and is not punished, then it's all good. I think it's mid-February we get news of his case.

[NightTrainLane]

34 minutes ago, Trojan said:

Smith's biggest issue is obviously the 4th of July incident with the pending hearing. Best trait is availability thing is real when he could be in prison for assault. If it's found he was defending his sister and is not punished, then it's all good. I think it's mid-February we get news of his case.

When you're stomping on someone's head multiple times,  I think you have passed the thresh hold of defending a loved one court case can be unpredictable and I don't know all the facts. Just doen't seem good for Smith.

[NightTrainLane]

1 hour ago, holyghost said:

Amerson is decent, when he feels like it.

Not a factual or provable claim IMO. If you don't trust his talent and effort when healthy then that is another matter but I don't think any of us know his effort level or what may be affecting his game on any given play.

 

1 hour ago, holyghost said:

Carrie is utterly average. The exact kind of guy you CAN'T go ahead and pay when your team starts to accumulate top end contracts like Carr's and soon Mack's.

I agree that we can't pay Carrie like prime corner. But every team isn't lucky enough to get a Colvin or a Roby. Carrie is a verstile player that has performed well for us and counting on him to be your 3rd or slot corner isn't settling for mediocrity IMO. Plus with the rate of injury now in the league, thinking you can add 4 serviceable corners in one offseason is pretty foolhardy. Depth and durability matters.

But I do follow the rest of your comment about the secondary being a complex issue with alot of factors.

Gonna be a hard fix and will be interesting to see how they tackle it.

[SimonGruber]

What do we have in Karl Joseph is my biggest question ? Does you ever live up to the 14th player overall ? Or what you say you guys ?

[big_palooka]

3 hours ago, NightTrainLane said:

So you think Amerson is a "bad player" and don't even know his preferred style of play or where he can be the most successful?

His best year with the redskin and with us was playing press man.

Guenther also said that he will put players in the best position to succeed and didn't commit to 3-4 or 4-3.

They brought in a DB coach that has run a pattern matching scheme, a part man and part zone coverage.

 

It was a rhetorical question. I don't think Amerson is a good player in any scheme. I don't think he's a starting caliber CB period and I wouldn't pay him like one was my point.

He's an injury risk at this stage with concussions and has put more bad play on tape than good.