Guest Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 12 hours ago, JDBrocks said: This is simply not true. If you don’t think the game has changed you are being willfully ignorant. Some positions are more valuable than others. I’m sorry if that upsets you. I really don't think I am ignorant, either willfully or accidentally. I do have an opinion that all the fancy analytics have gone way to far in both undervaluing positions, and greatly overvaluing others. What the overvaluing and undervaluing has not changed is the undeniable fact that all players on a team are important to the performance of the team. That's always been true and always will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swede700 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 13 hours ago, JDBrocks said: This is simply not true. If you don’t think the game has changed you are being willfully ignorant. Some positions are more valuable than others. I’m sorry if that upsets you. It's not about the game changing. As we've seen, if you have crappy guards, which aren't "premium" positions, none of it matters. Quentin Nelson was a 1st round guard. I don't think the Colts regret taking a player not at a "premium" position. I think I'd actually prefer to use the term "priority" rather than "premium." Some positions are prioritized over others, but that doesn't make the other positions any less important. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swede700 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 If the Vikings do move on from Spielman/Zimmer (I still believe that they'll get at least the 2021 season), here are some candidates for future GMs (which includes Paton). https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/next-potential-nfl-general-managers-gms-2021-2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDBrocks Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 4 hours ago, Virginia Viking said: I really don't think I am ignorant, either willfully or accidentally. I do have an opinion that all the fancy analytics have gone way to far in both undervaluing positions, and greatly overvaluing others. What the overvaluing and undervaluing has not changed is the undeniable fact that all players on a team are important to the performance of the team. That's always been true and always will be. They just aren’t equally important. Some positions are just more important than others. If you are arguing anything else you are choosing to deny something factual. Long Snapper =\= LT. Punter =\= MLB The way you spend draft capital should reflect relative positional value and importance. Should the Vikings draft a kicker in the 1st round? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDBrocks Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 4 hours ago, swede700 said: It's not about the game changing. As we've seen, if you have crappy guards, which aren't "premium" positions, none of it matters. Quentin Nelson was a 1st round guard. I don't think the Colts regret taking a player not at a "premium" position. I think I'd actually prefer to use the term "priority" rather than "premium." Some positions are prioritized over others, but that doesn't make the other positions any less important. But they are... A RDE is more important than a P. It just is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 5 minutes ago, JDBrocks said: They just aren’t equally important. Some positions are just more important than others. If you are arguing anything else you are choosing to deny something factual. Long Snapper =\= LT. Punter =\= MLB The way you spend draft capital should reflect relative positional value and importance. Should the Vikings draft a kicker in the 1st round? I wouldn't automatically discount drafting kicker in the first round...if that was the best player on the board and I needed a kicker. I certainly would've drafted a kicker rather than Christian Ponder in the first round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDBrocks Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 49 minutes ago, Virginia Viking said: I wouldn't automatically discount drafting kicker in the first round...if that was the best player on the board and I needed a kicker. I certainly would've drafted a kicker rather than Christian Ponder in the first round. I know that you don't actually mean this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swede700 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, JDBrocks said: But they are... A RDE is more important than a P. It just is. Conflating the argument as to comparing it to special teamers like kickers and punters is a complete distortion of the argument that is being made. Especially since Ks and Ps aren't the 11 on each side of the team that is being talked about. They are a whole separate category. Edited October 30, 2020 by swede700 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Buck Posted October 30, 2020 Author Share Posted October 30, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Virginia Viking said: I wouldn't automatically discount drafting kicker in the first round...if that was the best player on the board and I needed a kicker. I certainly would've drafted a kicker rather than Christian Ponder in the first round. I can understand everyone's arguments on the subject. At the same time, that was a pretty funny argument, and, with the benefit of hindsight I would have to concur! Edited October 30, 2020 by Uncle Buck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDBrocks Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 29 minutes ago, swede700 said: Conflating the argument as to comparing it to special teamers like kickers and punters is a complete distortion of the argument that is being made. Especially since Ks and Ps aren't the 11 on each side of the team that is being talked about. They are a whole separate category. Fine. The QB is more important than a NT. I don't know why this is a controversial topic. Some positions are just more important than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swede700 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 Quote Hey Houston, we’ve covered the Bears and Chargers already in the column. I know the Vikings came up last year, but I think with the contracts those guys signed shortly after the 2019 season—very real extensions, from what I heard (with Mike Zimmer’s topping $8 million per year)—Minnesota’s brass is safe. https://www.si.com/nfl/2020/12/02/mailbag-ravens-steelers-wednesday-afternoon-no-week-18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VikeManDan Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 6 minutes ago, swede700 said: https://www.si.com/nfl/2020/12/02/mailbag-ravens-steelers-wednesday-afternoon-no-week-18 Rightfully so IMO, like it or not Spielman was right to weather the storm going into the bye week. Let's see where the chips fall with Zimmer and Spielman after a hopefully "normal" off season heading into Training Camp 2021. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 6 minutes ago, VikeManDan said: Rightfully so IMO, like it or not Spielman was right to weather the storm going into the bye week. Let's see where the chips fall with Zimmer and Spielman after a hopefully "normal" off season heading into Training Camp 2021. I know that the offseason is important for team chemistry and player evaluation...but, every team had just as much of an off season as the Vikings. Yet, some teams excelled right out of the box. How do we account for that? I'm not saying you are wrong about Zimmer and Spielman needing a normal off season. Yet, the Steelers, Chiefs and Bills seem not to be as effected as the Vikings. Should Zimmer and Spielman be held accountable for the slow start? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swede700 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 5 minutes ago, Virginia Viking said: I know that the offseason is important for team chemistry and player evaluation...but, every team had just as much of an off season as the Vikings. Yet, some teams excelled right out of the box. How do we account for that? I'm not saying you are wrong about Zimmer and Spielman needing a normal off season. Yet, the Steelers, Chiefs and Bills seem not to be as effected as the Vikings. Should Zimmer and Spielman be held accountable for the slow start? The Steelers, Chiefs, and Bills had "virtually" the same team coming back as they had last year, including the coaching staff. Zimmer had huge changes on the defensive team with both players and staff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VikeManDan Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 36 minutes ago, Virginia Viking said: I know that the offseason is important for team chemistry and player evaluation...but, every team had just as much of an off season as the Vikings. Yet, some teams excelled right out of the box. How do we account for that? I'm not saying you are wrong about Zimmer and Spielman needing a normal off season. Yet, the Steelers, Chiefs and Bills seem not to be as effected as the Vikings. Should Zimmer and Spielman be held accountable for the slow start? Much like @swede700's response above there was so much turnover and youth expected to step up on the defensive side of the ball that it took some time for things to get figured out. A lot of these decisions were made, if I remember correctly, before we knew there wouldn't be OTA's and things of that nature. I'm fully expecting the Vikings to be a "worst to first" type of team next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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