Bradford Injury Dilemma

[SteelKing728]

13 hours ago, vike daddy said:

i'm going to start calling you IHOP, because you want to be a Waffle Master here.

you never said anything like you felt Bradford was a great QB but only played average because he was with lackluster teams. you said he was a poor QB who would never be ABLE TO BE anything other than average.

 

gotta own it, baby. 

When did I say he was poor? I called him mediocre, which if I remember correctly, I used to think those words were synonymous years ago lol

and yeah, I don't think he'll ever be able to be anything more than an overall average QB anymore. Talking about a player's potential doesn't change one's stance. I thought Jay Cutler, Derek Carr and even Christian Ponder had the potential to be much better QBs than what they are. That doesn't mean I view them as such.

[Cearbhall]

51 minutes ago, gopherwrestler said:

Bradford is still an above average QB looking around the league and is better that most that are out there, but it will be hard to be successful in the wrong systems. Shurmur gives him the right system when he is in, last year everything looked great until our line fell apart. He just needs some help. The QB skills you are talking about are mobility. He reads defenses well, he takes hits and gets the ball out with defenders in his face, and he is probably one of the top 5 "throwing QB's" in the NFL.

I don't have a problem with calling Bradford one of the top 5 throwing QBs in the NFL. I am not sure that he is but he is a very good thrower so it is a reasonable ranking. The QBs skills that I am talking about Bradford lacking is not just mobility. It has a lot to do with situational awareness, competitiveness, and maybe a bit of confidence. Yes mobility is an issue too especially in his ability to avoid the rush and feel the pocket to buy some time and get to a spot where there is a lane to deliver a ball downfield. Ability to run downfield is less important IMO.  He doesn't show the poise you want a leader to show in the pocket. Bradford struggles with anticipation and ability to throw receivers open.  Above all, he has had plenty of opportunities and has never been able to show that he is a winner. A QB that is a winner will raise the level of play of those around him and be able to lead teams to 10 wins occasionally. Bradford has never led a team to 9 wins.

[swede700]

1 hour ago, Purplexing said:

Our assessment of QBs will be verified or denounced by Vikings coaches in the upcoming weeks, and in the 2018 off season.  The Vikings front office will bid for the service of the best free agent QB(s), and other NFL teams will sign the residuals to a meager, moderate, or lucrative offer.

Until then, we should trust that the coaches know much more than we do. IF they don't do as you think they should, you should question YOUR judgement.  If you still disagree, apply for a job as a collegiate or NFL OC, QBC, or GM. 

We all know QB play better than the greatest coach and greatest GM.  

[gopherwrestler]

3 hours ago, Cearbhall said:

A QB that is a winner will raise the level of play of those around him and be able to lead teams to 10 wins occasionally. Bradford has never led a team to 9 wins.

Outside of A-Rod, Russel Wilson, and Tom Brady I don't think there are many QB's that actually raise the play of other players.

For the most part, when they are on, they could make the average guy look like something special out there.

Bradford isn't one of those guys. Either is Teddy. Either is Case. None of these guys right now if you put them on the current Packers roster would they end up winning 9-10 games. Rodgers, Wilson, and Brady can do that.

But minus the injuries, Keenum, Teddy, and Sam all win 10-13 games on this roster.

Of course we will never "know" that, but I do believe every one is more than capable doing it with this healthy roster.

Our team has been thriving off of this, this year. Would our team be better with one of the big 3? Of course. But we don't. Doubtful we will in the near future either because we will be stuck with one of the 3 QB's that will never play to that level.

[Cearbhall]

13 minutes ago, gopherwrestler said:

Outside of A-Rod, Russel Wilson, and Tom Brady I don't think there are many QB's that actually raise the play of other players.

For the most part, when they are on, they could make the average guy look like something special out there.

Bradford isn't one of those guys. Either is Teddy. Either is Case. None of these guys right now if you put them on the current Packers roster would they end up winning 9-10 games. Rodgers, Wilson, and Brady can do that.

But minus the injuries, Keenum, Teddy, and Sam all win 10-13 games on this roster.

Of course we will never "know" that, but I do believe every one is more than capable doing it with this healthy roster.

Our team has been thriving off of this, this year. Would our team be better with one of the big 3? Of course. But we don't. Doubtful we will in the near future either because we will be stuck with one of the 3 QB's that will never play to that level.

First, if you haven't figured out my bias already you need to understand that I don't think that Sam Bradford is a good QB. I am undecided about Case Keenum and Teddy Bridgewater. This is opinion but it is from where mine starts.

I beg to differ on the contention that Keenum doesn't raise the level of play around him. I am comfortable that having Keenum back there has raised the level of production of the offensive line in pass protection. This has resulted in a gain in their run blocking productivity too. I also believe Keenum has raised the level of production in the WRs. I am not sure whether Teddy would similarly raise the level of production on offense. I have seen enough Bradford to be comfortable believing that he will not raise the level of production of those around him.

I do not believe that this team wins 10 games this year with Bradford, minus injury, at QB. He will have ended too many drives early, like last year, and wore the defense out by midseason. He takes sacks to end drives and he ends drives all by himself by checking down short of the sticks on third down way too often.

I think there are a lot more QBs in the league that raise the productivity of other parts of the team than you believe. The three you mentioned raise the productivity of the team the most but many are various places along the spectrum. Deshaun Watson raised the productivity of the entire Texans offense. Carson Wentz raises the productivity of the players on the Eagle offense. Some QBs raise the productivity of the players on their offense, others lower the productivity of the players on their offense, and all the rest are somewhere in between on the spectrum. Case Keenum is somewhere in the middle with quite a bit of space between him and Sam Bradford.

[gopherwrestler]

3 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

I think there are a lot more QBs in the league that raise the productivity of other parts of the team than you believe. The three you mentioned raise the productivity of the team the most but many are various places along the spectrum. Deshaun Watson raised the productivity of the entire Texans offense. Carson Wentz raises the productivity of the players on the Eagle offense. Some QBs raise the productivity of the players on their offense, others lower the productivity of the players on their offense, and all the rest are somewhere in between on the spectrum. Case Keenum is somewhere in the middle with quite a bit of space between him and Sam Bradford.

You see Watson do this because how bad Savage and TJ Yates actually are. That team is loaded with talent on the roster. Nuk, Miller, Fuller. Of course a decent QB can make that happen. Savage was terrible and wouldn't go out and win much for any team including this one.

Wentz actually may be developing into one of those superstars, I just am yet to rank him there yet because we haven't truly seen it yet. I want to see another year like this past one. Then again look at what that roster is and how great the offensive line truly is.

 

Is Keenum raising the level of the play of the offense, or is one of his key traits sack avoidance? Much like Sam is the better thrower. While Sam doesn't always create plays for YAC, he is able to hit those tight windows when needed from a velocity and just pure arm talent, something Keenum doesn't carry.

Keenum isn't making these receivers better, a lot of it is the WR making him better. What he is doing is getting the ball out of his hands and giving the receivers a chance. Something they also were scheming Sam to do early in the year last year until he was forced to just get rid of the ball as fast as he could without taking a beating because of the line being so brutal.

We would not be seeing Case be this productive without the elements around him.

Sam also needs the right elements around him. The checkdowns came from having to do it because even our receivers were not able to get open fast enough before the pressure came to kill Sam. Something Teddy was also stuck having to do, and Teddy was even mobile.

 

I know you favor Case, personally in this offense I do too. He isn't asked to do much, and doesn't turn it over. He is doing what we need to win. He can avoid sacks, and while not having the best actual accuracy in the world, he is able to keep making these plays. I just believe Sam and Teddy are just as capable, much how we never saw them win many games by themselves, Case didn't do this anywhere else either until he got to play with a healthy offense under Shurmur.

[Cearbhall]

1 hour ago, gopherwrestler said:

Is Keenum raising the level of the play of the offense, or is one of his key traits sack avoidance? Much like Sam is the better thrower. While Sam doesn't always create plays for YAC, he is able to hit those tight windows when needed from a velocity and just pure arm talent, something Keenum doesn't carry.

I am open to being wrong about Sam and whenever I have to watch him play for the Vikings I hope that I am wrong. So far, he just hasn't convinced me. I agree that he is a better thrower and has better arm talent than the other two. It seems to me that Bradford should be able to hit those tight windows but I don't actually see him do that. He instead throws a checkdown. And I am not even talking about just last year when the Vikings line was a mess. I am talking about Bradford's whole career. My opinion of him is mostly from his pre-Vikings years. I hated the trade to get him since I already thought pretty low of him. Since the trade I have been hoping that I was wrong about Bradford but he has done nothing to make me believe that I was wrong.

Keenum makes the WRs better than they are with Bradfrod for the simple fact Keenum is willing to throw the ball to a place where they can only get it and let them do something. Bradford doesn't appear to have the fortitude to attempt many of the throws that Keenum attempts. He certainly has the arm for it.

I am completely fine with your opinion, or anyone else's opinion that Bradford is an average QB (or even better). I just disagree right now and will until Bradford gets on the field and has another chance to change my opinion. I kind of doubt he will change it because he hasn't lacked opportunities to this point. Watching him play generally reinforces my low opinion of him as a QB.

But hey, if he starts winning for the Vikings I'll become a fan. I'll be a fan of anyone that leads the Vikings to plenty wins (as long as they don't disrespect groups of people that I find reprehensible to disrespect [females/kids] or some such)

[Purplexing]

The ongoing banter back and forth above has limited value, largely due to the changes in the OL from 2016 to 2017, the OC change mid-season in 2016, and the injuries to DC and LM early in 2017.  The situations in which SB and CK have played are comparisons of apples, oranges, and some grapes.  Going back to 2015 to view TBs stats and development is also nearly meaningless due to the above changes.

Diggs, Thielen, Wright, McKinnon, and Wright were constant over 2015-2017. 

What we can say, somewhat comfortably#:

TB may develop beyond his 2015 level, due to his recovery and ability to take the field.  How the Shurmur system fits his game, and voce-versa, is unknown.  The upgraded OL will help, to an unknown / unknowable extent.

SB performed well in 2016, with a decimated OL, which yielded shorter routes and quicker throws.  How well he can do in the playoffs, and/ or in 2018 is unknown, helped by the upgraded OL, and helped or hindered by his current, unknown, mobility.  

CK is performing well in 2017, with some injuries of varying duration, to OLs, RBs and WRs. 

Speculation of how well TB and SB would do this year are interesting, but would only be insightful if some substantive, meaningful support is provided; e.g. the 2017 OL gives CK about .5 seconds more time to throw than the 2016 OL.... so TB or SB might do better than their average throw distance, or sacks. 

[CriminalMind]

So let's see what reports come out about him this week. Sure to be interesting week ahead

[SemperFeist]

Nice to see the limp is gone. 

[CriminalMind]

Bradford returned to practice

[SemperFeist]

I would expect Bradford to remain inactive during the playoffs, as I believe the team still gets its typical 21 days to activate him. That allows him to practice with the team throughout the playoffs. And that way, if Keenum, Bridgewater, or Sloter get injured, Bradford would be available to activate and join the active roster. 

[marshpit23]

1 hour ago, SemperFeist said:

Nice to see the limp is gone. 

Agreed. Looks decent in his drop backs

[vikingsrule]

1 hour ago, SemperFeist said:

I would expect Bradford to remain inactive during the playoffs, as I believe the team still gets its typical 21 days to activate him. That allows him to practice with the team throughout the playoffs. And that way, if Keenum, Bridgewater, or Sloter get injured, Bradford would be available to activate and join the active roster. 

Bradford starts the super bowl? 

[CriminalMind]

Well they don't run practice drills for water boys ... its completely fair game to let Bradford practice and compete for the backup QB spot, with 13ish days left before game time. He could have been training hard for quite some time, we don't know.