Week 3 GDT: Denver Broncos(2-0) @ Buffalo Bills(1-1)

[BroncoBruin]

 

3 hours ago, Broncofan said:

Again, though, it wasn't the 4.5M dollars - for better or worse, it was Elway's absolute belief that Jamal Carter would not clear the WW if Elway tried to stash him on the PS, and his need to keep 4 other S's on the 53-man roster.   If it were simply about the $, Elway would have cut bait well before the start of TC.     If Carter isn't in the equation, then DEN just lets Ward walk at the end of the season to FA.    We won't know if Carter is worth it - but he was the key, if it was just $, well, it would have happened well before the end of TC.

Simmons didn't play well at all - no excuses.   But we have to look at the big picture before condemning the move.  After all, it's only 1 game - just like we don't get too high from a W and think we're invincible and we should be printing SB52 tickets, we can't get too nuts about where we need work - as long as we understand what it is we need to work on.   Unlike many situations, we know Simmons & Parks should improve - the Q is how long will it take?  

While I'd question our assessment abilities for our O players, Elway & Woods clearly have been able to ID DB talent - so I have to give some benefit of the doubt to their valuation on keeping Carter on the 53-man instead of sneaking him onto the PS and keeping Ward.    It sucks to lose the game, but it's only 1 game.   Having said that, a home game vs. OAK is a must-win regardless.   Coming off big L's for both teams, this will go a long way to see just how far we've improved from last year.

It isn't just one game with Justin Simmons. It's three in a row where he's looked lost and made critical mistakes. He and Parks are holding back this defense and our offense slowed down enough for it to be apparent. If this team is serious about competing in 2017, cutting TJ was a ridiculous move. 

 

[BroncosFan2010]

Quote

He is yet to divide the locker room or play favorites but Vance's "rookie mistakes" are beginning to approach McDaniels territory. It better stop. 

Come one man. I wasn't happy with the VJ hire either but he has definitely been above average for a rookie HC. This statement is pretty preposterous.

That being said, putting the starting OL out for the fake punt is hilarious.

And I will agree with the crowd regarding cutting Ward. Simmons has not played well, and we are a team that has playoff aspirations. If TJ had like 3+ years left or something I can understand cutting bait, but he was a veteran leader on an expiring contract who was unceremoniously jettisoned far too late in the offseason. We should have kept him and IMO his release is the 2nd biggest mistake of Elways tenure after his attempt to pay Brock. Third biggest mistake would be allowing Calais Campbell to get away over 1M IMHO. He would be our 2nd best defensive player and that's saying a lot since our D is already elite.

Quote

If Trevor is more like plummer and orton than our guy I really don't see this team doing much those 03 to 05 broncos teams were super talented. But than they ran into Peyton Manning or Ben Roethlisberger.

I think you need to temper your Siemien expectations. If he turns out to be Plummer good, that's a win for a R7 pick. He is already better than Orton. People seem to think a HOF QB is going to just fall into our laps, that's very unlikely. We wont have a guy like that for quite some time, but for now Trevor is our best option given the other options available, and that's not likely to change for a few seasons. We wont be bad enough to get a potential elite prospect in the draft, so unless there is a unprecedented Peyton like move again, we need to just hope for a Plummer like talent that can supplement a good run game and elite D. Trevor can be that guy. He really want bad against Buffalo outside the two HORRIBLE throws that resulted in INT's, and that was him pressing to make plays rather than do what he usually does, make the right decision rather than go for the glory. Those passes really were anomalies for him IMO.

The only option I can see better than Siemien in the near future would be trying to pull a Peyton 2.0 and signing Brees but that's going to take 100% of our available cap space (23M in 2018) unless he has a Brady like epiphany and accepts a meager 15M.

[Broncofan]

5 hours ago, BroncoBruin said:

 

It isn't just one game with Justin Simmons. It's three in a row where he's looked lost and made critical mistakes. He and Parks are holding back this defense and our offense slowed down enough for it to be apparent. If this team is serious about competing in 2017, cutting TJ was a ridiculous move. 

 

...double post on phone 

 

[Broncofan]

5 hours ago, BroncoBruin said:

 

It isn't just one game with Justin Simmons. It's three in a row where he's looked lost and made critical mistakes. He and Parks are holding back this defense and our offense slowed down enough for it to be apparent. If this team is serious about competing in 2017, cutting TJ was a ridiculous move. 

 

My comment on being 1 game was that it sucks to lose  1 game.  

To be fair to Simmons he played very well in shutting down Henry and Gates and 3-4 key tackles on MG3 week 1 (Allen TD was on him).  But yeah he got burned repeatedly by Witten week 2.  Entirely fair point - I didn’t make that though (lol).  It still doesn’t change the reasons Elway did it go beyond this year...but we can only see the immediate impact.

The short term risk of worse S play was the double edged sword to keeping Carter on the roster instead of losing him (in his mind) trying to the PS.   If Simmons and/or Parks don’t progress then it’s a potentially big lose-now where we still don’t know what the future gain is.   But again it’s early.   Maybe they don’t improve and it’s a sore point all year long (like RT looks to be).   But if there are guys who will improve as the year progresses it’s guys like Simmons.   Doesn’t mean it’s a lock but these are the guys you stick with (not that we have a choice).   Ironically we all worried about run support and blitz timing...oh well.  It’s just way too soon to call it yet with 2nd-year guys getting starting reps, progress is something that’s very possible (unlike a vet like Watson where he should know the game nuances there looks like a sunk cost in pass pro)...no doubt it’s necessary, but just too early to call it a failed decision yet.

 

 

[iLikeDefense]

I asked this way early in the thread during the game when Simmons made a mistake. Has anyone seen TJ play this year (albeit two games)? Last year we saw a decline so I sort of expected the same this year but I haven't got the luxury or time to watch Buc games.

I was neutral on the move by Elway and still feel the same way. I'm going to give Simmons/Parks time before throwing them under the bus.

[iLikeDefense]

Has anyone called dibs on the GDT for this week? If not, I'll make my run this season (I think we won 3 games for my brief GDT stretch).

[jolly red giant]

If I remember correctly - last season everyone was crying about the fact that Ward was such a liability in pass coverage - all of a sudden he would solve all the problems last Sunday. Case Keenum torched the Bucs secondary on Sunday - a secondary that contained Ward.

[champ11]

I haven't been wildly unimpressed with Simmons. He's been a good tackler. Mistakes in coverage so far, for sure. But yeah our TE and RB coverage last year was really not good and I don't think it's killed us yet. Real test will be against the Chiefs in a few weeks so hopefully Parks and Simmons improve by then.

Vance, Olivo, and Woods are going to go through growing pains. You aren't going to step in for the first time and do a flawless job as a football coach or in any profession. You learn from errors and I'm sure Olivo and Joseph will take something from the fake punt fail 

[Broncofan]

1 hour ago, iLikeDefense said:

I asked this way early in the thread during the game when Simmons made a mistake. Has anyone seen TJ play this year (albeit two games)? Last year we saw a decline so I sort of expected the same this year but I haven't got the luxury or time to watch Buc games.

I was neutral on the move by Elway and still feel the same way. I'm going to give Simmons/Parks time before throwing them under the bus.

Ward was decent in Week 1 at Home vs a bad WR corps and awful against min.   So yes fair take.  

31 minutes ago, jolly red giant said:

If I remember correctly - last season everyone was crying about the fact that Ward was such a liability in pass coverage - all of a sudden he would solve all the problems last Sunday. Case Keenum torched the Bucs secondary on Sunday - a secondary that contained Ward.

To be fair the objection is that Ward & co. wouldn’t have communication and assignment mixups we’ve seen.  That’s fair.   But yeah there is no guarantee from what Ward has shown that he wouldn’t have the same coverage issues vs.  Witten week 2 or Buffalo week 3.  Personally I think that Simmons played way better week 1 than Ward would have done (Allen TD his only blemish).  

Its just way too soon to judge.  Give it time.  And that’s only for this year.   Doesn’t even account for the future gain.  

[champ11]

3 hours ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

Come one man. I wasn't happy with the VJ hire either but he has definitely been above average for a rookie HC. This statement is pretty preposterous.

That being said, putting the starting OL out for the fake punt is hilarious.

And I will agree with the crowd regarding cutting Ward. Simmons has not played well, and we are a team that has playoff aspirations. If TJ had like 3+ years left or something I can understand cutting bait, but he was a veteran leader on an expiring contract who was unceremoniously jettisoned far too late in the offseason. We should have kept him and IMO his release is the 2nd biggest mistake of Elways tenure after his attempt to pay Brock. Third biggest mistake would be allowing Calais Campbell to get away over 1M IMHO. He would be our 2nd best defensive player and that's saying a lot since our D is already elite.

I think you need to temper your Siemien expectations. If he turns out to be Plummer good, that's a win for a R7 pick. He is already better than Orton. People seem to think a HOF QB is going to just fall into our laps, that's very unlikely. We wont have a guy like that for quite some time, but for now Trevor is our best option given the other options available, and that's not likely to change for a few seasons. We wont be bad enough to get a potential elite prospect in the draft, so unless there is a unprecedented Peyton like move again, we need to just hope for a Plummer like talent that can supplement a good run game and elite D. Trevor can be that guy. He really want bad against Buffalo outside the two HORRIBLE throws that resulted in INT's, and that was him pressing to make plays rather than do what he usually does, make the right decision rather than go for the glory. Those passes really were anomalies for him IMO.

The only option I can see better than Siemien in the near future would be trying to pull a Peyton 2.0 and signing Brees but that's going to take 100% of our available cap space (23M in 2018) unless he has a Brady like epiphany and accepts a meager 15M.

 

Just imagine our defense with Campbell right now man. I'm frickin brokenhearted thinking about that. AINT MY MONEY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Broncofan]

2 hours ago, iLikeDefense said:

Has anyone called dibs on the GDT for this week? If not, I'll make my run this season (I think we won 3 games for my brief GDT stretch).

Go for it hope you have an even longer run this year.  

[AKRNA]

3 hours ago, iLikeDefense said:

Has anyone called dibs on the GDT for this week? If not, I'll make my run this season (I think we won 3 games for my brief GDT stretch).

Good luck. Looks to me like the next three are as close to "must wins" as you can have this early in the season.

It gets pretty tough after that.

[BroncoBruin]

4 hours ago, Broncofan said:

My comment on being 1 game was that it sucks to lose  1 game.  

To be fair to Simmons he played very well in shutting down Henry and Gates and 3-4 key tackles on MG3 week 1 (Allen TD was on him).  But yeah he got burned repeatedly by Witten week 2.  Entirely fair point - I didn’t make that though (lol).  It still doesn’t change the reasons Elway did it go beyond this year...but we can only see the immediate impact.

The short term risk of worse S play was the double edged sword to keeping Carter on the roster instead of losing him (in his mind) trying to the PS.   If Simmons and/or Parks don’t progress then it’s a potentially big lose-now where we still don’t know what the future gain is.   But again it’s early.   Maybe they don’t improve and it’s a sore point all year long (like RT looks to be).   But if there are guys who will improve as the year progresses it’s guys like Simmons.   Doesn’t mean it’s a lock but these are the guys you stick with (not that we have a choice).   Ironically we all worried about run support and blitz timing...oh well.  It’s just way too soon to call it yet with 2nd-year guys getting starting reps, progress is something that’s very possible (unlike a vet like Watson where he should know the game nuances there looks like a sunk cost in pass pro)...no doubt it’s necessary, but just too early to call it a failed decision yet.

 

 

Simmons did not shut down Henry or Gates. The Chargers' game plan opted not to involve the TEs in the passing game, which sounds insane but it's true. Joe Woods said as much.

Parks is essentially what T.J. Ward is in coverage with more mental lapses. Simmons is giving the Broncos their worst play on the back end since 2008-2010. He has enough playing experience to not look completely lost, but that's what he is.

[BroncoBruin]

3 hours ago, jolly red giant said:

If I remember correctly - last season everyone was crying about the fact that Ward was such a liability in pass coverage - all of a sudden he would solve all the problems last Sunday. Case Keenum torched the Bucs secondary on Sunday - a secondary that contained Ward.

Nobody has ever disputed Ward's man-to-man coverage isn't great. Neither is Will Parks', by the way. What you're missing here is how locked in the entire secondary was with two years of experience playing together. Ward would pay for over-aggression at times but never blew responsibilities the way Simmons and Parks have been. The communication breakdowns in the secondary are a direct result of TJ's absence.

[BroncoBruin]

3 hours ago, iLikeDefense said:

I asked this way early in the thread during the game when Simmons made a mistake. Has anyone seen TJ play this year (albeit two games)? Last year we saw a decline so I sort of expected the same this year but I haven't got the luxury or time to watch Buc games.

I was neutral on the move by Elway and still feel the same way. I'm going to give Simmons/Parks time before throwing them under the bus.

I'm not throwing them under the bus though. They've thrown themselves under the bus by playing bad football and standing out as the worst players on an otherwise dominant looking defense.