Myles Garrett vs. TJ Watt

[AlexGreen#20]

41 minutes ago, skywlker32 said:

The second point was stating that he dropped a handful of times, whereas the first was regarding his 5 passes defensed. There is something wrong there or you don't understand the term handful.

I didn't say defended, I said targets.

If we assume the 2 per game that he dropped against Arizona, multiplied by 16 games, that would be 32 snaps.

30ish drops out of 800ish snaps is like 3.5% that's a handful.

[Soko]

8 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

I didn't say defended, I said targets.

If we assume the 2 per game that he dropped against Arizona, multiplied by 16 games, that would be 32 snaps.

30ish drops out of 800ish snaps is like 3.5% that's a handful.

130 some odd times in 2018. I doubt that saw a significant drop off in 2019, but I don’t have those numbers in front of me.

[AlexGreen#20]

3 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

130 some odd times in 2018. I doubt that saw a significant drop off in 2019, but I don’t have those numbers in front of me.

His targets dropped from 27 to 5, I think there's pretty solid circumstantial evidence to assume a signifcant drop off.

[BlaqOptic]

On 4/22/2020 at 1:37 PM, AntonChigurh said:

 

Not how being a dominant 3 technique works , Allualu was constantly getting double and chipped on his side on top of it. 

 

 

You're clearly continuing to talk out of your rear-end... You clearly don't understand what 3-Tech means, let alone you didn't watch Alualu. Alualu is a backup for a reason and is the reason the Steelers ran so much Nickel but thanks for playing.

[AlexGreen#20]

On 4/24/2020 at 7:00 PM, BlaqOptic said:

You're clearly continuing to talk out of your rear-end... You clearly don't understand what 3-Tech means, let alone you didn't watch Alualu. Alualu is a backup for a reason and is the reason the Steelers ran so much Nickel but thanks for playing.

This is the weirdest argument I've ever seen on this site. 

The only thing I can conclude is that dude looked at the PFF score, came to a conclusion and isn't changing his mind for anything in the world. 

[Ward4HOF]

On 4/13/2020 at 5:06 PM, diamondbull424 said:

I will be honest I don’t watch enough Browns games outside of the divisional games so as to be an informed participant. Now just based off of say Browns/Steelers matchups... I would still go with TJ Watt.

The way I look at it, it’s essentially if we break this argument down... it becomes a “law of diminishing returns” argument. With Garrett let’s just say that his potential output when starting all 16 games could net you a 9.5/10 pass rush impact, while TJ Watt with inferior measurables could net you a 9/10 in pass rush impact. The difference between those two numbers is likely to be, what? 1-2 sacks on the season and a 5 QBHs?

But when you measure the overall versatility of the players from their ability to drop back into coverage for different deployment strategies, their ability to play 5-tech, play wide 9, play off ball, cover TEs/RBs, etc... all things that make a player “versatile”. Let’s makeup a number and say Garrett’s versatility is 7/10 while Watt is 9/10. You’re going to see far greater gains with regard to Watt impacting various other stages to more account for impact that results in team impact. Things like FFs that become short drives or PD on 3rd downs, 2 INTs on the season... they might not be “sacks” but that value would easily outweigh the Guy whose specialty isn’t much better than your proficiency in that area.

This is like Garrett is the kid who gets a 800 on the math SAT, but only a 600 on the reading portion. While Watt is the guy who gets a 750 on both. Obviously 1500 is better than 1400, even if 800 is “more prestigious”. I’m not sure if my analogies here make sense, but that’s just how I see this argument.

If I could take one on the Ravens for that reason it would easily be Watt over Garrett... and that would’ve been the case since before the helmet incident, considering that it only becomes an easier decision to make using that hindsight bias.

Exactly...Myles is the more 'freakish' Pass Rusher, and is definitely more talented than Watt in that regard...but 15 FF to 6 FF?? 18 PDs to 4 PDs?? 3 INTs to Nil??  177 TTkls to 104 TTkls??Even if adjusted for the extra 10 games TJ played (47 to 37), the numbers easily demonstrate that TJ has become the better all-around NFL player, and the more versatile player...but if I'm only looking for a guy to 'pin his ears back', and go after the QB?  I'd take Myles Garrett, but even so, Watt is closer to Garrett on that one skill-set, than Garret is to Watt in any of the other skill-sets.

Then add in relative draft position...1.1 vs 1.30, and the fact that the Steelers could have offered their entire draft selections, and per the draft value chart, wouldn't have had near enough to make that trade...and well....Watt wins the better value proposition, as well.

But go back to that day in April of 2017??  No doubt, Myles Garrett was the more sought after NFL talent...hands down.  And who knows; had Pittsburgh been the team to develop Myles Garrett in their system?  You never know...he very well could have turned out very similarly to Watt, and vice versa...

[AlexGreen#20]

3 hours ago, Ward4HOF said:

Exactly...Myles is the more 'freakish' Pass Rusher, and is definitely more talented than Watt in that regard...but 15 FF to 6 FF?? 18 PDs to 4 PDs?? 3 INTs to Nil??  177 TTkls to 104 TTkls??Even if adjusted for the extra 10 games TJ played (47 to 37), the numbers easily demonstrate that TJ has become the better all-around NFL player, and the more versatile player...but if I'm only looking for a guy to 'pin his ears back', and go after the QB?  I'd take Myles Garrett, but even so, Watt is closer to Garrett on that one skill-set, than Garret is to Watt in any of the other skill-sets.

Then add in relative draft position...1.1 vs 1.30, and the fact that the Steelers could have offered their entire draft selections, and per the draft value chart, wouldn't have had near enough to make that trade...and well....Watt wins the better value proposition, as well.

But go back to that day in April of 2017??  No doubt, Myles Garrett was the more sought after NFL talent...hands down.  And who knows; had Pittsburgh been the team to develop Myles Garrett in their system?  You never know...he very well could have turned out very similarly to Watt, and vice versa...

The problem with that comparison is you have to pick what you want out of Watt. Watt was able to get up to Garrett's pressure numbers this year when he basically wasn't asked to drop outside of the redzone, and despite what the stats say he really wasn't any kind of difference maker in coverage this year. He just didn't do it enough.

We also don't really know what Garrett's skillset is as a drop guy because he's never been asked to do it.

The other thing that Garrett gets you that Watt doesn't, is that Garrett is just a rock in run defense. Watt's pretty darn good at staying free and stringing things out, but Garrett's got an anchor due to his size and length that Watt just doesn't. 

[Ward4HOF]

10 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

The problem with that comparison is you have to pick what you want out of Watt. Watt was able to get up to Garrett's pressure numbers this year when he basically wasn't asked to drop outside of the redzone, and despite what the stats say he really wasn't any kind of difference maker in coverage this year. He just didn't do it enough.

We also don't really know what Garrett's skillset is as a drop guy because he's never been asked to do it.

The other thing that Garrett gets you that Watt doesn't, is that Garrett is just a rock in run defense. Watt's pretty darn good at staying free and stringing things out, but Garrett's got an anchor due to his size and length that Watt just doesn't. 

Yet, Watt managed the most PDs of his career, and an INT in the endzone in the 4th Qtr...I always love that excuse...'regardless of what the stats say...'

...and so Watt doesn't get credit for what he produces when he does drop back, and yet, in the same breath, Garrett gets excused for not dropping back, and Watt outproduces Garrett in the Run game behind the LOS ( 8 stuffs to 3 this season...21  to 8 over their careers...), but somehow, Garrett is the rock in run defense??

And as far as size is concerned, Watt is the same height, and definitely looks to be heavier than his listed 252. Garrett has a 2" advantage in arm length, but Watt has bigger (and looks to be 'heavier') hands...

You can't just completely disregard stats; it's the culmination, result, and impact of their play...the 'eye test' is not the end all/be all when comparing players...you have to look at all aspects.  And again, Garrett gets excused for not having to drop back, but Watt doesn't get excused for the rush plays lost when he does drop back??  And somehow, he doesn't do it enough, yet he gets results when he does, but we are supposed to disregard those results, for some reason??? Watt doesn't get to set the edge 100% of the time in run plays, as a 4-3 DE, so does he get excused for that, and the impact that has on his abilities to rush the passer and provide stout run D?

Bottom line is, to date, Watt is outproducing Garrett in near every meaningful statistic, and so, to make ones point about Garrett, the old 'you can't take stats at face value' excuse rears its ugly head.

Watt and Garrett play two different positions, in two different schemes, under different coaching staffs, etc...it's always going to be an 'apples vs oranges' debate, which is why I am extremely careful to not flat-out say "Watt is better than Garrett," there are too many variables.  Watt has been incredible for us, and as a 30th overall pick, one can't help but be trilled with the ROI. At the same time, Garrett is producing extremely well, and living up to his billing as a #1 overall pick; Browns fans should be thrilled with what they have in Garrett.

Will Garrett, after all is said and done, prove to have been able to provide a larger impact to the success of the Browns, than Watt has for the Steelers??  Maybe...IDK. But as of right now, both players have done some amazing things, and the two players, to date, have proven to be great players, but to say that one is "better than the other...and it's not even close", is close minded hyperbole that just is simply, not true. They are two players that are very close in talent and ability for what they are asked to do for their respective teams.

[AlexGreen#20]

19 minutes ago, Ward4HOF said:

Yet, Watt managed the most PDs of his career, and an INT in the endzone in the 4th Qtr...I always love that excuse...'regardless of what the stats say...'

...and so Watt doesn't get credit for what he produces when he does drop back, and yet, in the same breath, Garrett gets excused for not dropping back, and Watt outproduces Garrett in the Run game behind the LOS ( 8 stuffs to 3 this season...21  to 8 over their careers...), but somehow, Garrett is the rock in run defense??

And as far as size is concerned, Watt is the same height, and definitely looks to be heavier than his listed 252. Garrett has a 2" advantage in arm length, but Watt has bigger (and looks to be 'heavier') hands...

You can't just completely disregard stats; it's the culmination, result, and impact of their play...the 'eye test' is not the end all/be all when comparing players...you have to look at all aspects.  And again, Garrett gets excused for not having to drop back, but Watt doesn't get excused for the rush plays lost when he does drop back??  And somehow, he doesn't do it enough, yet he gets results when he does, but we are supposed to disregard those results, for some reason??? Watt doesn't get to set the edge 100% of the time in run plays, as a 4-3 DE, so does he get excused for that, and the impact that has on his abilities to rush the passer and provide stout run D?

Bottom line is, to date, Watt is outproducing Garrett in near every meaningful statistic, and so, to make ones point about Garrett, the old 'you can't take stats at face value' excuse rears its ugly head.

Watt and Garrett play two different positions, in two different schemes, under different coaching staffs, etc...it's always going to be an 'apples vs oranges' debate, which is why I am extremely careful to not flat-out say "Watt is better than Garrett," there are too many variables.  Watt has been incredible for us, and as a 30th overall pick, one can't help but be trilled with the ROI. At the same time, Garrett is producing extremely well, and living up to his billing as a #1 overall pick; Browns fans should be thrilled with what they have in Garrett.

Will Garrett, after all is said and done, prove to have been able to provide a larger impact to the success of the Browns, than Watt has for the Steelers??  Maybe...IDK. But as of right now, both players have done some amazing things, and the two players, to date, have proven to be great players, but to say that one is "better than the other...and it's not even close", is close minded hyperbole that just is simply, not true. They are two players that are very close in talent and ability for what they are asked to do for their respective teams.

We shouldn't be box score scouting.

PD are a rush stat with Edge Rushers. PDs count balls tipped at the LOS. Watt had more PDs than he did targets in coverage this year. 

Sure, we can give Watt credit for what he does when he drops back, but I'm not going to give him a ton of credit for back pedaling four yards and having Kyler Murray panic throw it right to him. Watt didn't make some wonderful play. Murray made a ****ty one. 

As far as using stuffs to measure run defense, stuffs are a team stat. Rarely is an edge rusher just going to flat out beat a guy to generate a stuff. They get a few where they string things out laterally, but most stuffs from Edge Rushers take place where a RB runs into the back of his OL because the DTs have shut down the interior gaps and the ER is the first one there to clean it up. The Steelers had 3 DTs better than anybody on the Browns last year. The Browns allowed 5.0 yards per carry on the ground this year. The Steelers averaged 3.8. Garrett and Watt weren't driving those numbers and it paints the gristly picture of what the teams were allowing on the interior. 

As far as size is concerned, Garrett is 20 pounds heavier, has longer arms, and with far more frequency is asked to take on a straight down block. His ability to hold his ground, land his hands, lockout, and get rid of a blocker is far more impressive than Watt's. Watt is much better about finding the football in the run game and that certainly helps him with the splash plays, but Garrett can do far more things in that aspect. You could line Garrett up at 5T or even 3T (and I don't mean just in the pressure packages) and not get totally murdered. You can't say the same about Watt. 

Watt barely lost any rush plays to dropping back this year. It's embarrassing that Steelers fans are peddling this narrative like Watt dropped back 200 snaps this year. He did way more last year, but this year it was basically exclusively in the redzone and even then not with great frequency.

We have plenty of information to judge Watt on his ability to hold the edge. He's pretty darn good at it, just not as good as Garrett. This isn't a situation like Garrett dropping into coverage where we have to scratch our head and shrug because there isn't a sample size for it. There's plenty of sample size to draw the conclusion on Watt.

Watt has 4 more sacks and 5 more QB hits in 10 more games. He's not outproducing Garrett from a pass rush perspective, and that's with the Steelers having a solid foundation around him to work. 

Nobody is saying that "and it's not even close". The issue being taken is with Steelers fans pointing to the stats and saying, "SEE, look at the numbers".

 

[Ward4HOF]

On 4/2/2020 at 7:19 AM, AlexGreen#20 said:

Myles by a lot

Really?? What a freaking joke...NOOO one is saying anything resembling "Myles, and it's not close..." and look at the 2 posts directly above this one...

I'm done here...no point in trying to argue with irrational, hyperbolic, single statement posters that provide no evidence to back their assertions, and when they finally do, make nothing but excuses for why their evidence can't measure up, lol...nice try... 

[AlexGreen#20]

1 minute ago, Ward4HOF said:

Really?? What a freaking joke...NOOO one is saying anything resembling "Myles, and it's not close..." and look at the 2 posts directly above this one...

I'm done here...no point in trying to argue with irrational, hyperbolic, single statement posters that provide no evidence to back their assertions, and when they finally do, make nothing but excuses for why their evidence can't measure up, lol...nice try... 

Fair enough. I did underrate Watt. 

You're right. 

As far as backing up my posts, I'm the one who went and dug through the nonsense argument that Watt is the one that's dropping. I'm the one who dug up the clips of Garrett's sacks against the Ravens when people have asked for them.

I've done plenty to back up my arguments. 

Edited May 3, 2020 by AlexGreen#20

[Ward4HOF]

19 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

 

Nobody is saying that "and it's not even close". The issue being taken is with Steelers fans pointing to the stats and saying, "SEE, look at the numbers".

 

 

[MSURacerDT55]

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2020 at 3:31 PM, Ward4HOF said:

Exactly...Myles is the more 'freakish' Pass Rusher, and is definitely more talented than Watt in that regard...but 15 FF to 6 FF?? 18 PDs to 4 PDs?? 3 INTs to Nil??  177 TTkls to 104 TTkls??Even if adjusted for the extra 10 games TJ played (47 to 37), the numbers easily demonstrate that TJ has become the better all-around NFL player, and the more versatile player...but if I'm only looking for a guy to 'pin his ears back', and go after the QB?  I'd take Myles Garrett, but even so, Watt is closer to Garrett on that one skill-set, than Garret is to Watt in any of the other skill-sets.

Then add in relative draft position...1.1 vs 1.30, and the fact that the Steelers could have offered their entire draft selections, and per the draft value chart, wouldn't have had near enough to make that trade...and well....Watt wins the better value proposition, as well.

But go back to that day in April of 2017??  No doubt, Myles Garrett was the more sought after NFL talent...hands down.  And who knows; had Pittsburgh been the team to develop Myles Garrett in their system?  You never know...he very well could have turned out very similarly to Watt, and vice versa...

I told myself once I made my point that I would let it go but......

-You all are breaking your necks to compare guys who have two different criteria, who play two different positions, who two different circumstances and try to spin it as if one is superior because one isn't required to do what the other does or because (brace yourself.....has more stats)

-People still avoid my question, would Watt be as all galaxy if he were on the Browns and is the singular focus of team's blocking schemes?

-Watt also has/had 28 additional sacks from the combination of Bud Dupree/Cam Heyward/Javon Hargrave/Tuitt, and Garrett basically had nothing with 13 total between Ogunjobi/Vernon/Thomas.

-These arguments are flat out reaches to support their narrative

-And this in not necessarily directed at you per se, just the argument in general

 

 

Edited May 4, 2020 by MSURacerDT55

[Ward4HOF]

22 hours ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

I told myself once I made my point that I would let it go but......

-You all are breaking your necks to compare guys who have two different criteria, who play two different positions, who two different circumstances and try to spin it as if one is superior because one isn't required to do what the other does or because (brace yourself.....has more stats)

-People still avoid my question, would Watt be as all galaxy if he were on the Browns and is the singular focus of team's blocking schemes?

-Watt also has/had 28 additional sacks from the combination of Bud Dupree/Cam Heyward/Javon Hargrave/Tuitt, and Garrett basically had nothing with 13 total between Ogunjobi/Vernon/Thomas.

-These arguments are flat out reaches to support their narrative

-And this in not necessarily directed at you per se, just the argument in general

 

 

I guess you failed to read this part of my post above...down below???

I agree with what you are saying, to a point...but as I also mentioned, I find it it odd that on page one of this thread, there are 3 consecutive "...and it's not even close"-type posts in favor of Garrett, and 2 of them do not bother to take the time to provide one shred of evidence to the point, so excuse me if I use evidence to support my rebuttal of those type of statements...

...and you don't like stats? No, you prefer the 'waa waa waa'-excuse filled support, arguments??? ...but, but, but, if Watt had to deal with playing with X players, and if Watt didn't have this advantage from this scheme or playing with these players, and if Garrett got to drop back,  and Watt only succeeded because the opponents players were inadequate...and...and...and...

...yet providing statistics, post-season awards, etc. is forbidden???  What, pray-tell, do you recommend pro-Watt supporters use as evidence to support that side of the debate??? Or should everyone just capitulate and agree with the one-liner posts that provide not one iota evidence to support their opinion...and when they finally do, it's, again, rife with excuse after excuse...

...or, pointing out that Garrett is physically superior to Watt. I agree; Garrett has the advantage of being physically superior to Watt. Are pro-Watt supporters allowed to use that excuse to defend why he isn't even better than he already is???

It's the same old anti-Steeler-bias that is pervasive throughout FF NFL Gen/Comparison/Draft threads, rearing it's ugly head...again...

"Watt and Garrett play two different positions, in two different schemes, under different coaching staffs, etc...it's always going to be an 'apples vs oranges' debate, which is why I am extremely careful to not flat-out say "Watt is better than Garrett," there are too many variables.  Watt has been incredible for us, and as a 30th overall pick, one can't help but be trilled with the ROI. At the same time, Garrett is producing extremely well, and living up to his billing as a #1 overall pick; Browns fans should be thrilled with what they have in Garrett."

Edited May 5, 2020 by Ward4HOF

[Chuck80]

I'll give you an example of two difference making Defensive ends that I saw 

 

Jason Taylor, he actually caused fumbles, can pick the ball off and his hits or pressures got Madison and Surtain many ints ....(And Jason was only 240lbs doing that )

 

Dwight Freeney was another one 

 

Myles will get there eventually but he isn't yet 

Edited May 9, 2020 by Chuck80