Myles Garrett vs. TJ Watt

[diamondbull424]

2 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Because in any other conversation - other than this extremely literal one, where we’re going as far as differentiating “was largely erased” and “is largely erased” - the two quotes from the other post are pretty synonymous

Not even disagreeing with you, lol. Just looking at the stats (not remembering all those games), it certainly appears that Garrett’s impact was minimal. Granted players can affect games without doing so on the stat sheet, but that’s neither here nor there. You backed up what you said statistically, no need to go on a technicality debate. And for the record, I’m guilty of this all the time...

That was just me being intentionally dense because the other guy tried making a Strawman claim against my argument and then acted dense as to the meaning of my saying “largely erased”. So yeah that wasn’t actually a useful portion of my argument I agree.

[Soko]

18 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

That was just me being intentionally dense because the other guy tried making a Strawman claim against my argument and then acted dense as to the meaning of my saying “largely erased”. So yeah that wasn’t actually a useful portion of my argument I agree.

I do it all the time. 

You’ve made a case for Watt/Garrett vs Baltimore, what about in general?

[diamondbull424]

21 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

I do it all the time. 

You’ve made a case for Watt/Garrett vs Baltimore, what about in general?

I will be honest I don’t watch enough Browns games outside of the divisional games so as to be an informed participant. Now just based off of say Browns/Steelers matchups... I would still go with TJ Watt.

The way I look at it, it’s essentially if we break this argument down... it becomes a “law of diminishing returns” argument. With Garrett let’s just say that his potential output when starting all 16 games could net you a 9.5/10 pass rush impact, while TJ Watt with inferior measurables could net you a 9/10 in pass rush impact. The difference between those two numbers is likely to be, what? 1-2 sacks on the season and a 5 QBHs?

But when you measure the overall versatility of the players from their ability to drop back into coverage for different deployment strategies, their ability to play 5-tech, play wide 9, play off ball, cover TEs/RBs, etc... all things that make a player “versatile”. Let’s makeup a number and say Garrett’s versatility is 7/10 while Watt is 9/10. You’re going to see far greater gains with regard to Watt impacting various other stages to more account for impact that results in team impact. Things like FFs that become short drives or PD on 3rd downs, 2 INTs on the season... they might not be “sacks” but that value would easily outweigh the Guy whose specialty isn’t much better than your proficiency in that area.

This is like Garrett is the kid who gets a 800 on the math SAT, but only a 600 on the reading portion. While Watt is the guy who gets a 750 on both. Obviously 1500 is better than 1400, even if 800 is “more prestigious”. I’m not sure if my analogies here make sense, but that’s just how I see this argument.

If I could take one on the Ravens for that reason it would easily be Watt over Garrett... and that would’ve been the case since before the helmet incident, considering that it only becomes an easier decision to make using that hindsight bias.

[tab]

give me Watt all day everyday

[Duluther]

Give me Watt as well. Bigger impact as he has a better nose for the ball.

[wackywabbit]

19 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

I will be honest I don’t watch enough Browns games outside of the divisional games so as to be an informed participant. Now just based off of say Browns/Steelers matchups... I would still go with TJ Watt.

The way I look at it, it’s essentially if we break this argument down... it becomes a “law of diminishing returns” argument. With Garrett let’s just say that his potential output when starting all 16 games could net you a 9.5/10 pass rush impact, while TJ Watt with inferior measurables could net you a 9/10 in pass rush impact. The difference between those two numbers is likely to be, what? 1-2 sacks on the season and a 5 QBHs?

But when you measure the overall versatility of the players from their ability to drop back into coverage for different deployment strategies, their ability to play 5-tech, play wide 9, play off ball, cover TEs/RBs, etc... all things that make a player “versatile”. Let’s makeup a number and say Garrett’s versatility is 7/10 while Watt is 9/10. You’re going to see far greater gains with regard to Watt impacting various other stages to more account for impact that results in team impact. Things like FFs that become short drives or PD on 3rd downs, 2 INTs on the season... they might not be “sacks” but that value would easily outweigh the Guy whose specialty isn’t much better than your proficiency in that area.

This is like Garrett is the kid who gets a 800 on the math SAT, but only a 600 on the reading portion. While Watt is the guy who gets a 750 on both. Obviously 1500 is better than 1400, even if 800 is “more prestigious”. I’m not sure if my analogies here make sense, but that’s just how I see this argument.

If I could take one on the Ravens for that reason it would easily be Watt over Garrett... and that would’ve been the case since before the helmet incident, considering that it only becomes an easier decision to make using that hindsight bias.

Agree with 100% of this. Obviously both are 10x better than any edge we have and we'd gladly take either, or at least settle for them leaving the division. But Watt would be the more valuable hypothetical addition based on what I've seen of both players, especially because we ask that position to move around and drop back and do less predictable things.

[MOSteelers56]

I think Garrett is probably better at rushing the passer, but Watt is more versatile. Both are freakish athletes in slightly different ways. Watt is a little more agile, Garrett is bigger and more explosive. I think a GM would be foolish to pass up Garrett the prospect for Watt the prospect. I think GMs would probably take TJ now because of the helmet incident. 

[Chuck80]

On 4/12/2020 at 6:33 PM, diamondbull424 said:

😂

You really want to do this?? Okay, I will show you how foolish you look here; One your stat totals are wrong. Also those numbers aren’t in ONE game. They’re across two games. So let’s compare Garrett and Watt and their impact in games against the Ravens in their careers.

Myles Garrett

4 games, 1.5 sks, 4 solo, 1 TFL, 3 QBHs, 0 FFs, 1 PD

Avg: 0.375 sks, 1 solo, 0.25 TFL, 0.75 QBH, 0 FF, 0.25 PD

Game 1- 2017: 0 sk, 1 solo, 0 TFL, 0 QBH, 0 FF, 1 PD

Game 2- 2018: 0.5 sk, 1 solo, 0 TFL, 2 QBH, 0 FFs, 0 PD

Game 3- 2018: 1 sk, 1 solo,1 TFL, 0 QBH, 0 FFs, 0 PD

Game 4- 2019: 0 sk, 1 solo, 0 TFL, 0 QBH, 0 FF, 0 PD

TJ Watt

6 games, 2.5 sks, 23 solo, 5 TFL, 6 QBH, 2 FFs, 2 PDs

Avg: 0.42 sks, 3.83 solo, 0.83 TFL, 1 QBH, 0.33 FFs, 0.33 PDs

Game 1- 2017: 0 sk, 4 solo, 1 TFL, 0 QBH, 0 FF, 1 PD

Game 2- 2017: 1 sk, 4 solo, 1 TFL, 3 QBH, 1 FF, 0 PD

Game 3- 2018: 0 sk, 3 solo, 0 TFL, 0 QBH, 0 FFs, 0 PD

Game 4- 2018: 0 sk, 4 solo, 0 TFL, 0 QBH, 0 FFs, 0 PD

Game 5- 2019: 1 sk, 4 solo, 3 TFL, 1 QBH, 0 FF, 0 PD

Game 6- 2019: 0.5 sk, 4 solo, 0 TFL, 2 QBH, 1 FF, 1 PD

So like I said in my post, TJ Watt has EASILY been the more impactful player vs the Ravens. He’s getting basically 4x the amount of tackles and tackles for loss, he’s going to create forced fumbles at a decent clip, all while still being more impactful in sacks and QB hits. Garrett gets a tackle/game.

And it’s not like both players aren’t seeing a lot of attention their way, but with Watt he’s hustling way more than Garrett, he’s way more versatile than Garrett, and he’s got better football instincts than Garrett.

So yeah as far as I’m concerned when it comes to the Ravens playing either of these guys, I would EASILY choose to see Garrett over seeing Watt. Which isn’t to say that Garrett is trash or something, I’m simply saying the on the field impact against my team has not been close.

So this is clearly a situation with you being all up in the Kool-Aid and you don’t even know the flavor.

I'm not being bias being a Steelers fan but Tj definitely is a force , he can pick the ball off, force fumbles plus he helps other guys get sacks and ints, Fitzpatrick had 3 ints off of a Watt pressure or a Dupree pressure not counting Haden's pick 6 he got after Watt hit Dalton in Pittsburgh

 

Garrett isn't a bad player one of the best pass rushers in the NFL but he's no where the impact player Tj Watt is I fully agree with you 

[AntonChigurh]

On 4/7/2020 at 7:02 AM, AlexGreen#20 said:

1. Tyson Alualu was the Steelers 4th best DL this year behind Heyward, Hargrove, and half a season of Tuitt. 

2. What kind of dumb**** blocking scheme are you looking at that the Tackle is downblocking the 3T in pass protection???? Certainly nothing an NFL team is running. 

If he is a dominate 3T and is beating the guard one like Alualu tends to do, thats what requered. Usually having to keep the TE to risk a 1 on 1 with a athletic olb

People who never played the game trying to talk football lol, what a joke

[AntonChigurh]

Watt might be the most overrated player on this board. 

 

Great player but  nowhere near the combo talent of Garrett. 

[AlexGreen#20]

1 hour ago, AntonChigurh said:

If he is a dominate 3T and is beating the guard one like Alualu tends to do, thats what requered. Usually having to keep the TE to risk a 1 on 1 with a athletic olb

People who never played the game trying to talk football lol, what a joke

Alualu had 6 pressures and 1 sack in all of 2019. He is not a dominant 3 Tech and is not routinely beating Guards. He only played 40% of snaps and wasn't being utilized in the pressure package. He is literally a replacement level rotational DT. 

What on Earth does the TE have to do with blocking a 3T???

[MSURacerDT55]

On 4/13/2020 at 5:06 PM, diamondbull424 said:

I will be honest I don’t watch enough Browns games outside of the divisional games so as to be an informed participant. Now just based off of say Browns/Steelers matchups... I would still go with TJ Watt.

The way I look at it, it’s essentially if we break this argument down... it becomes a “law of diminishing returns” argument. With Garrett let’s just say that his potential output when starting all 16 games could net you a 9.5/10 pass rush impact, while TJ Watt with inferior measurables could net you a 9/10 in pass rush impact. The difference between those two numbers is likely to be, what? 1-2 sacks on the season and a 5 QBHs?

But when you measure the overall versatility of the players from their ability to drop back into coverage for different deployment strategies, their ability to play 5-tech, play wide 9, play off ball, cover TEs/RBs, etc... all things that make a player “versatile”. Let’s makeup a number and say Garrett’s versatility is 7/10 while Watt is 9/10. You’re going to see far greater gains with regard to Watt impacting various other stages to more account for impact that results in team impact. Things like FFs that become short drives or PD on 3rd downs, 2 INTs on the season... they might not be “sacks” but that value would easily outweigh the Guy whose specialty isn’t much better than your proficiency in that area.

This is like Garrett is the kid who gets a 800 on the math SAT, but only a 600 on the reading portion. While Watt is the guy who gets a 750 on both. Obviously 1500 is better than 1400, even if 800 is “more prestigious”. I’m not sure if my analogies here make sense, but that’s just how I see this argument.

If I could take one on the Ravens for that reason it would easily be Watt over Garrett... and that would’ve been the case since before the helmet incident, considering that it only becomes an easier decision to make using that hindsight bias.

Im going to preface this by saying im pretty much done because there is no debating and seeing the other side so ill just make my point and leave.

- They play two different positions 

- Garrett netted 10 sacks in 10 games

- Watt also plays with other high level productive guys to take focus away from him.  (insert guys minimizing their accomplishments) He had Bud Dupree who has 11.5 sacks, and had another 16.5 sacks between Heyward, Hargrave and Tuitt (yes i know he was injured). The next close sack leader for the Browns was Ogunjobi with 5.5 and back up Chad Thomas with 4, what does that mean? Teams whole focus when playing the Browns is to stop Garrett at all cost because he is the only significant pass rushing threat on the field.

- I cringe because I know people won't be unbiased, but for skips and giggles ill try it, what would be the result if you switch situations and have Watt the sole focus on a defense that lacks any other talent, vs Garrett going to a defense with already established, veteran defense with other threats? 

- Also since we are comparing guys who play two different positions, given Garrett's physical talents, I think he could play standing up rather easily, how about Watt, could he be the same all world guy with is hand in the dirt and do this on a crappy defense?

- I personally think this is more of a popularity contest where people pick guys without looking at the full context, Or pick a guy just because they don't like him for something he did 

- Respect due to the few who reply with an unbiased, down the middle or even honest opinion.

Edited April 20, 2020 by MSURacerDT55

[diamondbull424]

5 hours ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Im going to preface this by saying im pretty much done because there is no debating and seeing the other side so ill just make my point and leave.

- They play two different positions 

- Garrett netted 10 sacks in 10 games

- Watt also plays with other high level productive guys to take focus away from him.  (insert guys minimizing their accomplishments) He had Bud Dupree who has 11.5 sacks, and had another 16.5 sacks between Heyward, Hargrave and Tuitt (yes i know he was injured). The next close sack leader for the Browns was Ogunjobi with 5.5 and back up Chad Thomas with 4, what does that mean? Teams whole focus when playing the Browns is to stop Garrett at all cost because he is the only significant pass rushing threat on the field.

- I cringe because I know people won't be unbiased, but for skips and giggles ill try it, what would be the result if you switch situations and have Watt the sole focus on a defense that lacks any other talent, vs Garrett going to a defense with already established, veteran defense with other threats? 

- Also since we are comparing guys who play two different positions, given Garrett's physical talents, I think he could play standing up rather easily, how about Watt, could he be the same all world guy with is hand in the dirt and do this on a crappy defense?

- I personally think this is more of a popularity contest where people pick guys without looking at the full context, Or pick a guy just because they don't like him for something he did 

- Respect due to the few who reply with an unbiased, down the middle or even honest opinion.

1. I’m confused as to how I’m biased. I’m a Ravens fan, what specific dog do I have in this fight against Browns fans more than Steelers?

2. If you put that much attention on containing Watt as a pass rusher he drops back into coverage for picks because he’s got great agility and field awareness.

3. Supposing Garrett would be good at dropping back into coverage because he’s “athletic” is a terrible assumption that, speaking of bias, is holistically biased. If that were the case Taylor Mays might’ve been one of the greatest coverage specialists of all time... but that’s not how this works.

Edited April 20, 2020 by diamondbull424

[BlaqOptic]

On 4/18/2020 at 2:38 PM, AntonChigurh said:

If he is a dominate 3T and is beating the guard one like Alualu tends to do, thats what requered. Usually having to keep the TE to risk a 1 on 1 with a athletic olb

People who never played the game trying to talk football lol, what a joke

The irony... You're throwing around terms like 3-Tech and clearly have no idea what they actually mean. If Alualu were playing the 3-Tech then that would leave the OT one-on-one with the Linebacker or the OT and TE 2-on-1 with the linebacker since he's our Defensive End and almost never kicks inside. If you're insinuating Alualu commands double teams from the 3-Tech and would command the tackles inside shoulder then you've never watched a Steelers game.

[BlaqOptic]

20 hours ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Im going to preface this by saying im pretty much done because there is no debating and seeing the other side so ill just make my point and leave.

- They play two different positions 

- Garrett netted 10 sacks in 10 games

- Watt also plays with other high level productive guys to take focus away from him.  (insert guys minimizing their accomplishments) He had Bud Dupree who has 11.5 sacks, and had another 16.5 sacks between Heyward, Hargrave and Tuitt (yes i know he was injured). The next close sack leader for the Browns was Ogunjobi with 5.5 and back up Chad Thomas with 4, what does that mean? Teams whole focus when playing the Browns is to stop Garrett at all cost because he is the only significant pass rushing threat on the field.

- I cringe because I know people won't be unbiased, but for skips and giggles ill try it, what would be the result if you switch situations and have Watt the sole focus on a defense that lacks any other talent, vs Garrett going to a defense with already established, veteran defense with other threats? 

- Also since we are comparing guys who play two different positions, given Garrett's physical talents, I think he could play standing up rather easily, how about Watt, could he be the same all world guy with is hand in the dirt and do this on a crappy defense?

- I personally think this is more of a popularity contest where people pick guys without looking at the full context, Or pick a guy just because they don't like him for something he did 

- Respect due to the few who reply with an unbiased, down the middle or even honest opinion.

It's funny because some of those same All-World guys who you're trying to prop up were only 5.5 sack guys but when Ogunjobi does it you sell him short. The other part is that it's no coincidence that those same players you highlight all had their best seasons AFTER Watt arrived. And it's not like it was a one-shot outlier; all had their first and second best seasons as Pros AFTER Watt got to Pittsburgh and transformed the defense from run of the mill to top 8.