Myles Garrett vs. TJ Watt

[diamondbull424]

10 hours ago, buno67 said:

Who else in the browns front 7 besides Myles Garrett, does an opposing OC have worry about?   

who else in the Steelers front 7 besides Watt, does an opposing OC have to worry about? Hayward, Tuitt, and Dupree

So you can greatly scheme against Garrett cause no one else will stop you. Look at the Steelers game. they were throwing a lot more quick game and were running away from Garrett.  Can’t really run away from Watt cause that means your running toward Dupree and Hayward/TuittE

The Ravens aren’t doing a lot of “cute” stuff to deal with MG. They put Stanley on him and just let them matchup. Sure do they alternate looks, but for the most part your argument is moot as it doesn’t pertain to my point.

The Ravens can do very little and keep MG from making an impact on the game... now does that mean he won’t have a great game at some point? It doesn’t. He’s a great player and that’s within his job description to do so.

My point however is that regardless. Watt can be kept from making an impact as a pass rusher and then makes an interception in coverage or force a fumble on a RB. He’s more versatile in his impact and that results in his impact seeming like more of an eventuality and less of a rare game against the Ravens.

[BlaqOptic]

10 hours ago, buno67 said:

Who else in the browns front 7 besides Myles Garrett, does an opposing OC have worry about?   

who else in the Steelers front 7 besides Watt, does an opposing OC have to worry about? Hayward, Tuitt, and Dupree

So you can greatly scheme against Garrett cause no one else will stop you. Look at the Steelers game. they were throwing a lot more quick game and were running away from Garrett.  Can’t really run away from Watt cause that means your running toward Dupree and Hayward/TuittE

Not even trying to be Pro-Watt here, but this is BS. We did not run away from Garrett and we didn't throw quickly because of Garrett. Ben has the quickest release all season because it's how our offense is run. Nothing to do with Garrett at all.

[diamondbull424]

11 hours ago, buno67 said:

Who else in the browns front 7 besides Myles Garrett, does an opposing OC have worry about?   

who else in the Steelers front 7 besides Watt, does an opposing OC have to worry about? Hayward, Tuitt, and Dupree

So you can greatly scheme against Garrett cause no one else will stop you. Look at the Steelers game. they were throwing a lot more quick game and were running away from Garrett.  Can’t really run away from Watt cause that means your running toward Dupree and Hayward/TuittE

 

9 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

I dont think anyone is arguing that he is not super athletic, hes one of the best DEs in the NFL and a great pass rusher. I just dont think that he gets game planned for and demands the attention of the entire offense on every play like Garrett does. A lot of it has to do with the fact the Steelers front 7 is full of players who can hurt a team therefore teams cant just focus on one player and slide protection all the time.

@buno67 I forgot to address the other part of your point in my post, was distracted. But on this note. I definitely think it is indeed true that teams can’t “gameplan” for Watt to the degree that they do Garrett.

However this is getting into the classic basketball argument of TMac, LeBron, Kobe (insert player) doesn’t have help. If he had a legit wingman teams couldn’t focus as much attention and he would score more points.

Teams do everything they can to stop Garrett but his having less competition on his team to steal away sacks, provides him with less efficient sack production per pass rush snap (I’d surmise), but more sack production overall. As those would be sacks that Watt misses out on because Heyward or Tuitt eat just a split second before he’s got a chance... but if they were there just a split second later, he would’ve eaten and his production would be higher.

Thats why it’s the basketball argument. MG likely would have a slight benefit in production if his help was of average to above average quality, but the moment they get to that “good” quality they’re going to start “robbing” away potential sacks from him. Help would certainly make his pass rush win rate increase and other such efficiency numbers, but beyond that typically output is highest when an athletic freak has less competition to steal away from his opportunities.

All we know for sure however is their play on the field. And while some see MG as the better player and others see it as Watt, I’m in the Watt crowd mainly because of the impact he’s had against the Ravens (regardless of how good a job Stanley and Brown Jr do in pass pro) is pretty annoying. He’s such a beast though.

[ET80]

Why is this a question?

I like Watt, but this is Garrett/Garrett - by a significant margin. Not a knock on Watt, but it's acknowledgement that Garrett is THAT good.

[buno67]

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

 

@buno67 I forgot to address the other part of your point in my post, was distracted. But on this note. I definitely think it is indeed true that teams can’t “gameplan” for Watt to the degree that they do Garrett.

However this is getting into the classic basketball argument of TMac, LeBron, Kobe (insert player) doesn’t have help. If he had a legit wingman teams couldn’t focus as much attention and he would score more points.

Teams do everything they can to stop Garrett but his having less competition on his team to steal away sacks, provides him with less efficient sack production per pass rush snap (I’d surmise), but more sack production overall. As those would be sacks that Watt misses out on because Heyward or Tuitt eat just a split second before he’s got a chance... but if they were there just a split second later, he would’ve eaten and his production would be higher.

Thats why it’s the basketball argument. MG likely would have a slight benefit in production if his help was of average to above average quality, but the moment they get to that “good” quality they’re going to start “robbing” away potential sacks from him. Help would certainly make his pass rush win rate increase and other such efficiency numbers, but beyond that typically output is highest when an athletic freak has less competition to steal away from his opportunities.

All we know for sure however is their play on the field. And while some see MG as the better player and others see it as Watt, I’m in the Watt crowd mainly because of the impact he’s had against the Ravens (regardless of how good a job Stanley and Brown Jr do in pass pro) is pretty annoying. He’s such a beast though.

I see your point and I see where you are coming from.

I also think of it this way. If you are building a defense, who are you taking first, Garrett or Watt? if you are taking Watt, you are marrying yourself to the 3/4 because I dont think he can play in the 4/3 scheme because you are greatly handcuffing him. Watt is the idea 3/4 LB because he is good in coverage and is great at rushing the passer. Now you could make him a full time OLB in the 4/3 but now you are taking away his rushing ability because you wont be able to blitz him as much. You cant make him a 4/3 DE because I believe he is a little too small to be that full time. With Garrett, you are now able to play any scheme with him. He isnt as dependent to the 4/3 like Watt is to the 3/4. I think Garrett would do fine in any scheme. Hell, I wouldnt mind seeing him in the 3/4 and used like Vonn Miller was used 

You also look at the Watt and Garrett defense comparison. one plays on a more complete defense and the other does not. Like you said, Watt has done more against the Ravens but in that same breathe. Watt has played on the better overall team. Garrett was drafted by a team that won 0 games, Watt was drafted by a team that won 11games. You just cant right that off, saying well Watt, would see an increase in production and stats if he had a bigger role. Go back to your NBA arguement, we have seen darn good role players on title winning teams, go sign with different teams and get an expanded role and they now suck. Draymond Green could never be a #1/#2 guy on an NBA team. Now could Watt turn into a James Harden type payer and blossom? who knows but we have seen more guys in the NBA, who tried to go from #3/#4/6th man role to a #1/#2 and just be a complete flop. We saw it happen with Parsons, Hardaway JR, Crabbe, and etc.

In a bubble situation, you send Garrett, say to the Jags right now and you do the same for Watt, who is going to perform better? I think Garrett is going to play a lot better in that situation. Dont get me wrong, I like Watt. Hate that he plays for the Steelers but I only think he turns into this stud if he is only drafted by a few teams. I think he would be this good if he was drafted by the Steelers, Pats, and Ravens. If he goes to other teams, I think he plays well but not to his current level. Hell I think Watt could be even better on the Ravens cause the DL is similar but have a by far better secondary and would free Watt up even more. 

 

[AkronsWitness]

4 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

 

@buno67 I forgot to address the other part of your point in my post, was distracted. But on this note. I definitely think it is indeed true that teams can’t “gameplan” for Watt to the degree that they do Garrett.

However this is getting into the classic basketball argument of TMac, LeBron, Kobe (insert player) doesn’t have help. If he had a legit wingman teams couldn’t focus as much attention and he would score more points.

Teams do everything they can to stop Garrett but his having less competition on his team to steal away sacks, provides him with less efficient sack production per pass rush snap (I’d surmise), but more sack production overall. As those would be sacks that Watt misses out on because Heyward or Tuitt eat just a split second before he’s got a chance... but if they were there just a split second later, he would’ve eaten and his production would be higher.

Thats why it’s the basketball argument. MG likely would have a slight benefit in production if his help was of average to above average quality, but the moment they get to that “good” quality they’re going to start “robbing” away potential sacks from him. Help would certainly make his pass rush win rate increase and other such efficiency numbers, but beyond that typically output is highest when an athletic freak has less competition to steal away from his opportunities.

All we know for sure however is their play on the field. And while some see MG as the better player and others see it as Watt, I’m in the Watt crowd mainly because of the impact he’s had against the Ravens (regardless of how good a job Stanley and Brown Jr do in pass pro) is pretty annoying. He’s such a beast though.

Im not sure thats true. I know if you go look at Von Millers production when he had Bradley Chubb on the field compared to last year when he didnt, his production took a major hit because without somebody to take the sole focus off him, he was getting doubled/chipped on nearly every rush.

Its a lot easier to pileup the numbers when you have other great talent around you, harder to do that if your a 1 man show and the offense just slides protection to your side every snap

Edited October 31, 2020 by AkronsWitness

[Rod Johnson]

On 10/30/2020 at 11:58 AM, Ray Reed said:

Garrett seems to have started this season off better this year but I'm much more concerned about dealing with TJ this Sunday than I was concerned about Myles leading up to the week 1 game. Browns and Steelers fans can take from that what they will but 🤷‍♂️

I could see that, but the Steelers defense as a whole is so much better than the Browns.  Ravens offense can mitigate Garrett pretty easily because the Browns underneath coverage is so miserable there is no reason to hold the ball for very long.  Also you know Garrett is going to line up in the same handful of spots and rushing every play.

With Watt you have to consider that the  Steelers coverage will confuse your QB and that their formation and blitz scheme will force a very unfavorable matchup against Watt.  Not taking away anything away from TJ, but I think it's a great player + great scheme/defense.

[Rod Johnson]

I think of how each would perform if they switched teams/defense and feel like the answer is obviously Garrett.  Not that Garrett would be used optimally in the Steelers scheme like TJ is, actually Watt may be a better fit for them. I just don't see TJ coming close to Garrett's production on the Browns.

[BayRaider]

Two best EDGE’s in the league right now, but Myles is definitely the best. Mack would be third, but at the moment is a distant third. 

[DawgX]

Watt is amazing. Knew he was going to be a stud from his first game in the league. But Garrett is better.

One thing people seem to discount is that Watt has far superior help from the rest of Pittsburgh's front seven. It's too risky to just double or triple team Watt all game long, cause someone else in Pittsburgh's front seven will make opposing teams pay. The same cannot be said for Cleveland's front seven - if you double or triple team Garrett all game, there's not another player in our front seven who will consistently make opposing teams pay. I mean, you could argue that the worst player in Pittsburgh's front seven is still better than Cleveland's second best player in their front seven.

[Malfatron]

well, you sure dont go Kevin King

[diamondbull424]

On 10/31/2020 at 2:17 PM, AkronsWitness said:

Im not sure thats true. I know if you go look at Von Millers production when he had Bradley Chubb on the field compared to last year when he didnt, his production took a major hit because without somebody to take the sole focus off him, he was getting doubled/chipped on nearly every rush.

Its a lot easier to pileup the numbers when you have other great talent around you, harder to do that if your a 1 man show and the offense just slides protection to your side every snap

Yet Matt Judon produced more sacks (9) when Suggs and Zadarius Smith both left. Suggs that same year (2018) also produced less sacks (7), while he produced more the year before (2017) when Smith hadn’t yet broken out.

Which was more production than he had (8) the prior year (2016) when he was playing alongside Elvis Dumervil.

Yet the opposite also was true once in 2006 for that great defense when Suggs increased his sacks, however the opposite has been more often true.

However either way, my point is that saying MG with more help would somehow inflate his production isn’t something that is somehow more true when plenty of historical precedent says that at best it’s a mixed bag and at worse it’s probably not true. While it means less offensive attention and thus more sack opportunities, it also means less sack opportunities because you’re competing for them against better “sack competition” (I quote this because teammates are what I consider the competition here and not the opposing team like might otherwise be read). So in the end the decrease in offensive attention and the increase in sack competition generally even itself out in some way, shape, or form.

[diamondbull424]

On 10/31/2020 at 12:28 PM, buno67 said:

In a bubble situation, you send Garrett, say to the Jags right now and you do the same for Watt, who is going to perform better? I think Garrett is going to play a lot better in that situation. Dont get me wrong, I like Watt. Hate that he plays for the Steelers but I only think he turns into this stud if he is only drafted by a few teams. I think he would be this good if he was drafted by the Steelers, Pats, and Ravens. If he goes to other teams, I think he plays well but not to his current level. Hell I think Watt could be even better on the Ravens cause the DL is similar but have a by far better secondary and would free Watt up even more. 

My answer is still Watt. I think people are over complicating this. Watt wasn’t somehow “magically” gifted a team to best show him off. This dude is the brother of JJ Watt who won DPOY 3x, he’s got legit HOF family as his kin. This guy himself has been an absolute stud (because pro roots aren’t the only thing that matter, else there’d be a lot more studs across the league) and played on a DPOY level.

So if there was a hypothetical situation where the Jets had Rex Ryan still as a HC and he could have either Watt or Mayle Garrett, he LITERALLY could not go wrong. As I said before, I think this is incredibly close... but I would still choose to give him Watt over MG. Defenses aren’t all 43 or 34 anymore. Most defenses operate some strong form of the nickel defense as their base. So really my DC is just trying to best utilize this defensive freak. While MG is perhaps the superior pass rusher (and I’m not FULLY convinced of that), MG is far more inferior to Watt in coverage.

Garrett is like playing a fighting game like Tekken, SF, or MK and spamming an OP attack move. While Watt is like spamming an OP combo that you can execute from different setups with a “lesser” character. He’s not quite as “imposing” and dominant as MG but he’s more technically sound and can give you far more versatility to get you the win.

And if you’re wondering WHY I choose TJ Watt over MG, case and point has to do with MG giving Stanley some fits, while Watt simply knocks him out for the season... nothing more needs be said and I officially rest my case.

Edited November 2, 2020 by diamondbull424

[TENINCH]

We already have Danielle Hunter so I'd take Watt. A linebacker that can pressure a QB as good as he does would be so much fun to watch.

[AntonChigurh]

Tyson Alaulu makes TJ Watt, TJ Watt