Jeremy408 Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 1 minute ago, NYRaider said: It's also a pretty deep LB class and there will be guys available in round 2-4 that should become starters. I agree that we probably shouldn't go CB in the first round because Surtain will likely be gone and Farley's back injury is a major red flag. One sleeper CB that I've really liked for a while is Paulson Adebo. He's a big, tall, long, athletic WR/CB convert that had really good tape at times at Stanford. His skill-set is tailor made to be an outside CB in a cover 3 scheme. If we're going pass rush in the 1st round I'd prefer Jaelan Phillips, Azeez Ojulari, or Kwity Paye. I'd like Barmore at #48 if he's still on the board there. I don't care too much if it's on the third day. The value's there I'm down for anything at that point. As someone who actually played corner for most of his life my valuation of the corners in this draft besides surtain(And possibly Asante Samuel Jr) theyre a crapshoot. We also have a lot invested in the position so I think if we're gonna do the corner thing we get a veteran like Sherman or Hayward after the draft. I don't mind Paulson If we got him with one of the third rounders. But I mean he reminds me a lot of Isaiah Johnson(Whom already have so theres that. I like Jaylon Phillips and Azeez(Although he makes me a little nervousBecause I'm not sure that he's better than Max Crosby). I think Carlos basham is the better version of Kwiti Paye So I'd rather go with him. My thing with Barmore is I Understand both sides Of the argument So I am in the "if we get him ku if not who cares" boat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 42 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said: I don't mind Paulson If we got him with one of the third rounders. But I mean he reminds me a lot of Isaiah Johnson(Whom already have so theres that. I like Jaylon Phillips and Azeez(Although he makes me a little nervousBecause I'm not sure that he's better than Max Crosby). I think Carlos basham is the better version of Kwiti Paye So I'd rather go with him. My thing with Barmore is I Understand both sides Of the argument So I am in the "if we get him ku if not who cares" boat Paulson is much more advanced as a CB then Johnson was coming into the draft. He had first round hype coming into 2019 but didn't play as well and then opted out in 2020 due to covid. I like Jaelan Phillips a lot as well, if he can stay healthy he'll probably be the best edge player from the class. Almost every reputable draft-nick has a top 20 grade on Paye and a 2nd/3rd round grade on Basham. Paye's physical tool set is special and his upside is through the roof. Going Basham over Paye would be like going Ferrell over Burns/Allen a couple of years ago. Azeez wouldn't scare me, you can never have too many pass rushers on your defensive line. I've been one of the biggest Barmore supporters on the board but after seeing some more of him I just don't think he's worth the 17th pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy408 Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 1 minute ago, NYRaider said: Paulson is much more advanced as a CB then Johnson was coming into the draft. He had first round hype coming into 2019 but didn't play as well and then opted out in 2020 due to covid. I like Jaelan Phillips a lot as well, if he can stay healthy he'll probably be the best edge player from the class. Almost every reputable draft-nick has a top 20 grade on Paye and a 2nd/3rd round grade on Basham. Paye's physical tool set is special and his upside is through the roof. Going Basham over Paye would be like going Ferrell over Burns/Allen a couple of years ago. Azeez wouldn't scare me, you can never have too many pass rushers on your defensive line. I've been one of the biggest Barmore supporters on the board but after seeing some more of him I just don't think he's worth the 17th pick. With paye basham I actually think it's the other way around. I like basham in the top 20 And I think Paye is more of a high upside day 2 guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 13 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said: With paye basham I actually think it's the other way around. I like basham in the top 20 And I think Paye is more of a high upside day 2 guy. I disagree. I think from a tools perspective Paye is one of the most physically gifted edge players to come into the draft in a while. Basham has a higher floor but Paye definitely has a higher ceiling, imo. You can make a legitimate argument for Paye as the best edge prospect in the class just based off of his upside. Basham reminds me of Ferrell in the sense that to be effective in the NFL he's going to have to win with power, technique, and effort while being a good run defender. Paye is a freaky athlete with great bend/twitch that has the potential to be a force off the edge if he continues to develop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy408 Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 5 minutes ago, NYRaider said: I disagree. I think from a tools perspective Paye is one of the most physically gifted edge players to come into the draft in a while. Basham has a higher floor but Paye definitely has a higher ceiling, imo. You can make a legitimate argument for Paye as the best edge prospect in the class just based off of his upside. Basham reminds me of Ferrell in the sense that to be effective in the NFL he's going to have to win with power, technique, and effort while being a good run defender. Paye is a freaky athlete with great bend/twitch that has the potential to be a force off the edge if he continues to develop. Yeah I've heard the whole Paye perspective. I'll start by saying Jalen Phillips has the most upside as long as he doesn't get hurt. My problem with Paye is he's not really a pass rusher right now(He has all the tools to be a pass rusher and a very good one at that). But the bottom line he doesn't really know how to rush the passer right now. It's all based on what we think you can do. That's great for a team like say the Browns who already have an established pass rush but not for us. We need pass rushers they can rush the passer day one if we're going to draft one. And yes I know about the 6.3 3 cone The 35 inch vertical And the 4.5 40 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 Just now, Jeremy408 said: y problem with Paye is he's not really a pass rusher right now(He has all the tools to be a pass rusher and a very good one at that). But the bottom line he doesn't really know how to rush the passer right now. It's all based on what we think you can do. That's great for a team like say the Browns who already have an established pass rush but not for us. We need pass rushers they can rush the passer day one if we're going to draft one. Pure statistics don't really tell the whole story though, there have been a number of guys with so-so sack production in college that have became elite pass rushers in the NFL. Clean Ferrell had like 21 sacks in his final 2 seasons at Clemson and Danielle Hunter had 4.5 sacks in his final 2 seasons at LSU. Last season Paye played 138 passing snaps and had 2 sacks, 4 QB hits, and 16 pressures. Basham played 211 passing snaps and had 5 sacks, 4 QB hits, and 16 pressures. So in 80 more pass rushing snaps their production was identical from a QB hit/pressure perspective but Basham had 3 more sacks playing against much worse competition. Basham is like Ferrell, he won as a pass rusher based on strength, power, and technique. He's not a twitchy or explosive guy off of the edge. Paye on the other hand is extremely twitchy and explosive off the edge and that's what typically translates into becoming a good pass rusher in the NFL. Again it reminds me a lot of Brian Burns vs Clelin Ferrell during the pre-draft process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy408 Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, NYRaider said: Pure statistics don't really tell the whole story though, there have been a number of guys with so-so sack production in college that have became elite pass rushers in the NFL. Clean Ferrell had like 21 sacks in his final 2 seasons at Clemson and Danielle Hunter had 4.5 sacks in his final 2 seasons at LSU. Last season Paye played 138 passing snaps and had 2 sacks, 4 QB hits, and 16 pressures. Basham played 211 passing snaps and had 5 sacks, 4 QB hits, and 16 pressures. So in 80 more pass rushing snaps their production was identical from a QB hit/pressure perspective but Basham had 3 more sacks playing against much worse competition. Basham is like Ferrell, he won as a pass rusher based on strength, power, and technique. He's not a twitchy or explosive guy off of the edge. Paye on the other hand is extremely twitchy and explosive off the edge and that's what typically translates into becoming a good pass rusher in the NFL. Again it reminds me a lot of Brian Burns vs Clelin Ferrell during the pre-draft process. I respect that you did your homework. A couple of things though: Daniel hunter was the third round pick, came off of the bench His rookie year and played on a team that was already getting to the quarterback.(We would be drafting him in the first round And the assumption is he would play immediately on a team that was really bad at getting to the quarterback). Like honestly if the Vikings wanted to get Paye at 13 it actually makes sense for them. We need more of a sure thing If we're going to do an edge rusher. And immediate impact guy. My problem with Paye Is more film than it is statistics. Here's what I'm looking at: Something you always kind of see with like the Uber talented players(Clowney for example) They kind of just run at you. I feel like that's what he does. And my thing is if it's a player that can't help us rush the passer in 2021 then I'm good. A couple of things with the Basham Ferrell comparison: The idea is supposed to be with ferrell when he came out is that Because he didn't run his 40, Teams figured that he refused to run because he knew he'd get exposed and drop down draft boards which is what happened anyway(Except for us). Another thing to keep in mind yes we projected him inside on third downs which is something he didn't do in college(I think it's pretty well documented on my view I want to player doesn't get used the way that got him noticed) So he had to develop there With Basham on the other hand though he was bigger he ran 4.64(The same time as Myles Garrett) While also being the same size as Myles Garrett. He also had a fast resort shuttle He had a 34 inch vertical(Paye had 35) I say this to say, while he's not the athlete that Paye or Myles Garrett or Clowney is, He's also Not this overachiever who is game doesn't translate at the next level. The things that they wanted Clelin Ferrell to do in terms of playing inside bathroom has already done at a high-level in college And he's bigger Which makes him a better fit for the role in terms of size. My two main knocks on him are that he's kind of stiff and his arms are shorter then I would like for an edge rusher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 12 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said: With Basham on the other hand though he was bigger he ran 4.64(The same time as Myles Garrett) While also being the same size as Myles Garrett. He also had a fast resort shuttle He had a 34 inch vertical(Paye had 35) I say this to say, while he's not the athlete that Paye or Myles Garrett or Clowney is, He's also Not this overachiever who is game doesn't translate at the next level. The things that they wanted Clelin Ferrell to do in terms of playing inside bathroom has already done at a high-level in college And he's bigger Which makes him a better fit for the role in terms of size. My two main knocks on him are that he's kind of stiff and his arms are shorter then I would like for an edge rusher. Basham doesn't play fast or athletic though, he doesn't look explosive on film. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy408 Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 10 minutes ago, NYRaider said: Basham doesn't play fast or athletic though, he doesn't look explosive on film. Check it out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said: Looks like Ferrell, winning with strength and technique more often then he's winning with bend/athleticism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 IMO, Basham is a guy that you'd target at #48. He'd be a pretty big reach at #17. If we're going pass rusher at 17 I'd prefer (in order): Jaelan Phillips, Azeez Ojulari, or Kwity Paye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy408 Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 (edited) 13 minutes ago, NYRaider said: Looks like Ferrell, winning with strength and technique more often then he's winning with bend/athleticism. Except... -He’s bigger and faster And more athletic -He’s proven that he actually can play inside on third downs rather than theoretically can play inside on third downs. -Played next to no one notable in college I would like him at 17 I would love him at 48 Edited April 12, 2021 by Jeremy408 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said: Except... -He’s bigger and faster And more athletic -Actually can play inside on third downs rather than theoretically can play inside on third downs. -Played next to no one notable in college I would like him at 17 I would love him at 48 But he doesn't play with great bend or athleticism. He wins primarily with strength and technique. There's a reason that everyone has a 2nd/3rd round grade on him, he lacks the bend/burst to be a premier pass rusher. As you said he's a guy that's a DE on running downs that you can shift inside on passing downs. That's redundant to have with Ferrell already on the roster and if you're going to spend an early pick on an edge player you want someone with the bend/athleticism to be a dominant pass rusher. https://www.profootballnetwork.com/carlos-basham-jr-nfl-draft-player-profile-wake-forest-edge-rusher/ Quote At the next level, Basham Jr. projects most favorably as a left defensive end in a 4-3 scheme that situationally gets chances to rush interior gaps. He’s a power style end that is strong at the point of attack, does well to contain, and features a sufficient pass-rushing skill set where his technique and effort leads to pressure on the quarterback. If a team is in search of a burst and bendy pass rusher, that’s not Basham’s game. He wins with power, technique, effort, and angles to get home. https://www.profootballnetwork.com/carlos-basham-jr-nfl-draft-player-profile-wake-forest-edge-rusher/ Quote Basham’s issues stem from his physical makeup, which is why it’s tough for Round 1 hype to stick to him. Basham flashes some explosiveness, but he isn’t consistent enough with his burst at the point of attack. His middling explosiveness prevents him from consistently gaining angles on blockers, and he doesn’t have the bend or lateral agility and suddenness to compensate. https://www.nfl.com/prospects/boogie-basham/32004241-5314-1481-9904-6347892079b0 Quote His lack of suddenness and edge speed could get him pegged as an early-down end while moving inside to become an interior rusher on passing downs. He needs to become comfortable handling the heavy lifting as a run defender as he's much more likely to be a worker bee than playmaker in that regard. He's strong and plays heavy at the point of attack with leverage to sit down and battle for his space of turf. He's unlikely to produce headline-making production, but should be a good pro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy408 Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, NYRaider said: But he doesn't play with great bend or athleticism. He wins primarily with strength and technique. There's a reason that everyone has a 2nd/3rd round grade on him, he lacks the bend/burst to be a premier pass rusher. As you said he's a guy that's a DE on running downs that you can shift inside on passing downs. That's redundant to have with Ferrell already on the roster and if you're going to spend an early pick on an edge player you want someone with the bend/athleticism to be a dominant pass rusher. https://www.profootballnetwork.com/carlos-basham-jr-nfl-draft-player-profile-wake-forest-edge-rusher/ https://www.profootballnetwork.com/carlos-basham-jr-nfl-draft-player-profile-wake-forest-edge-rusher/ https://www.nfl.com/prospects/boogie-basham/32004241-5314-1481-9904-6347892079b0 Just because I said he’s a defense of end on running down doesn’t mean he can’t run to the passer from the DE position(see Michael Bennett). And for the record Nick Bosa isn’t an athleticism guy either. Does it mean you can’t win off the edge. That being sad like I mentioned already, basham is an underrated rusher With underrated athleticism Edited April 12, 2021 by Jeremy408 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted April 12, 2021 Share Posted April 12, 2021 6 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said: Just because I said he’s a defense of end on running down doesn’t mean he can’t run to the passer from the DE position(see Michael Bennett). And for the record Nick Bosa isn’t an athleticism guy either. Does it mean you can’t win off the edge. That being sad like I mentioned already, basham is an underrated rusher With underrated athleticism Michaell Bennett was also a mid-round pick and it took him years to become an effective pass rusher. Nick Bosa was the consensus #1 prospect in the draft coming out of college and one of the better edge prospects in the last decade. Basham is a high floor/low ceiling type of prospect and has a pretty similar skillset to Ferrell. Which is fine but would be redundant considering we already have Ferrell on the roster and Basham would be a major reach at #17. Bosa is a good example though as you said he's not a super bendy guy either. He was good as a rookie but he also played on one of the best DL's in recent memory. And guys taken after him with more bend/explosiveness in Josh Allen, Brian Burns, and Montez Sweat all look poised to be better pass rushers going forward. There's not a single draft analyst in the industry that has a 1st round grade on Basham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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