ESPN - Lions had 4th worst offseason

[Karnage84]

15 hours ago, SteelKing728 said:

It gets worse, I'm afraid. 

I really liked Kearse too. Dang.

Yes and no. He's more of a ST guy and isn't even a lock to make the roster. It's certainly not a good look but this isn't Tracy Walker, Duron Harmon or even Will Harris. 

[Nnivolcm]

3 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

Yes and no. He's more of a ST guy and isn't even a lock to make the roster. It's certainly not a good look but this isn't Tracy Walker, Duron Harmon or even Will Harris. 

You have a lot more faith in those three than I do.

[Karnage84]

6 hours ago, Nnivolcm said:

You have a lot more faith in those three than I do.

Harris I get but I dont see what Walker or Harmon have done/not done to deserve that lack of faith. Both have played very well in their respective roles in this system. They haven't been the problem on defense. 

[Nnivolcm]

2 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

Harris I get but I dont see what Walker or Harmon have done/not done to deserve that lack of faith. Both have played very well in their respective roles in this system. They haven't been the problem on defense. 

Last season we had a historically bad defense, on a team with a history of bad defenses. Even if these three were superstars, I don't think they'll be able to showcase that ability in this defense. 

[NFL_Fan]

56 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

Last season we had a historically bad defense, on a team with a history of bad defenses. Even if these three were superstars, I don't think they'll be able to showcase that ability in this defense. 

no pass rush = fail every single time...

[SteelKing728]

On 8/1/2020 at 7:26 AM, Karnage84 said:

Yes and no. He's more of a ST guy and isn't even a lock to make the roster. It's certainly not a good look but this isn't Tracy Walker, Duron Harmon or even Will Harris. 

He's a nice chess piece. We used him in a lot of different roles I believe. Very good depth.

[Karnage84]

9 hours ago, SteelKing728 said:

He's a nice chess piece. We used him in a lot of different roles I believe. Very good depth.

I trust your perspective as a Vikings fan. He is still a depth piece, not a key starter. If they had to replace him its not the same as losing Walker or Harmon. 

[diehardlionfan]

On 5/18/2020 at 10:22 PM, davisblack said:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/29180831/ranking-2020-nfl-offseasons-worst-first-barnwell-all-32-teams#DET

 

Mostly blaming signing a bunch of Patriots, not trading down from #3 and drafting a RB in the 2nd over a position of more need.

Personally, I don't have much of an issue with signing ex Patriots at all. Sure it would be better to grow those types of players in house, but I have no problems signing players that fit this particular system well, who cares where they come from? It would have been nice to trade down in the 1st, but I kind of believe Quinn when he said there weren't any offers, and Swift was BPA on most boards, it was a fine pick.

The Lions definitely still have some holes to fill, but I don't think they did terrible, more of a middle of the road off season in my eyes.

I also don’t care where players come from however I don’t see much success from the Patriots castoffs be it players, coaches etc.

I understand why the concern over the Swift pick. It’s to high a selection for a RB that most see as lacking speed to get outside and isn’t an every down back. Of course that’s based on scouting etc. It’s what he does on the field that matters and it’s up to Swift to prove the doubters wrong.

All of the opinions will be validated or dismissed with performance. My main beef with the current regime is they plug holes never getting any specific playing unit to excellence. There is NOTHING to fear about the Lions except Stafford and his performance has always been limited by the offensive line and a defence that can’t get off the field.

Most prognosticators have the Lions picking around 7th in next years draft so most view the Lions as a bad team, again.

[diehardlionfan]

On 5/20/2020 at 7:33 PM, Nnivolcm said:

Normally that is true. It's not true in this situation. When ownership publicly states this regime, coming off a 3 win season, needs to make the playoffs not to be fired, a 3rd round pick for the next regime and a season of elite CB play at a reasonable price (to help current regime compete for playoffs) is better than a 3rd this season. 

Slay, like many quality players, was disgruntled because of Patricia's attitude and behavior. If you're trying to build a winning culture in a locker room, you have to know how to manage talented players. Slay was tweeting hints about not being happy in Detroit. He wasn't going full Antonio Brown or anything. 

There is a very large difference between the Ramsey type deal and what the Lions got for Slay. Patricia and Quin got played by Slay and the rest of the NFL and got a very poor return on the investment. 

The Pro Bowl shouldn't hold a ton of weight. It's not an accurate measurement of how good players played. It's an easy metric to use and it get's the message across when I didn't have the energy or giv-a-darn to come up with a better one. The bigger point was Slay was still elite without a pass rush. He's going to be a monster, even as "an aging player", if Philly can help him with a pass rush like Detroit never did. 

I agree with you. Regardless of all our differing opinions the bottom line us Slay isn’t in Detroit and he was the highest quality defender on a roster lacking impact players.

[Karnage84]

On 8/17/2020 at 8:46 AM, diehardlionfan said:

I also don’t care where players come from however I don’t see much success from the Patriots castoffs be it players, coaches etc.

I understand why the concern over the Swift pick. It’s to high a selection for a RB that most see as lacking speed to get outside and isn’t an every down back. Of course that’s based on scouting etc. It’s what he does on the field that matters and it’s up to Swift to prove the doubters wrong.

All of the opinions will be validated or dismissed with performance. My main beef with the current regime is they plug holes never getting any specific playing unit to excellence. There is NOTHING to fear about the Lions except Stafford and his performance has always been limited by the offensive line and a defence that can’t get off the field.

Most prognosticators have the Lions picking around 7th in next years draft so most view the Lions as a bad team, again.

A large part of all of this, whether it's from the Patriots castoffs to the pundits is that the Lions organization as a whole is not being given any credit or good faith. They haven't proven it in years past so I get it but it also doesn't guarantee that the team is going to be bad this year. Until the Lions start to string together consistent periods of success the team and the organization will not be given any benefit of the doubt in a down year. If the Seahawks have a down year there isn't a pundit that would write them off and have them in the top 10 for pre-season projections. 

Swift: Many draft experts had Swift as their highest rated RB in the draft process. Maybe you could have made arguments for other guys like CEH or Taylor but we're talking about different flavours of ice cream. Swift is a very, very good RB who is also complimentary to the guys who are already there. He's in the discussions for pre-season OROY. The argument can be made on whether we should have drafted a RB that high and how much more effective he would be than a later round RB. I haven't seen anything about Swift not being a good player. 

[LionArkie]

1 hour ago, Karnage84 said:

A large part of all of this, whether it's from the Patriots castoffs to the pundits is that the Lions organization as a whole is not being given any credit or good faith. They haven't proven it in years past so I get it but it also doesn't guarantee that the team is going to be bad this year. Until the Lions start to string together consistent periods of success the team and the organization will not be given any benefit of the doubt in a down year. If the Seahawks have a down year there isn't a pundit that would write them off and have them in the top 10 for pre-season projections. 

Swift: Many draft experts had Swift as their highest rated RB in the draft process. Maybe you could have made arguments for other guys like CEH or Taylor but we're talking about different flavours of ice cream. Swift is a very, very good RB who is also complimentary to the guys who are already there. He's in the discussions for pre-season OROY. The argument can be made on whether we should have drafted a RB that high and how much more effective he would be than a later round RB. I haven't seen anything about Swift not being a good player. 

For me, this off season was a flop. I've been saying give them a chance or wait and see for a while, even though they have given nothing for me to really work with. Swift might have the talent to win ROY, but I have no faith in what the front office has put in place on the OL, specifically on the right side.  They, as Diehard said, plugged holes.  I'm also seriously concerned about the DL. If those two position groups play as I expect, I think this will be the regimes last year. We can say what we want about MP, but this year I put it squarely on Quinn.

Edited August 18, 2020 by LionArkie

[Karnage84]

51 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

For me, this off season was a flop. I've been saying give them a chance or wait and see for a while, even though they have given nothing for me to really work with. Swift might have the talent to win ROY, but I have no faith in what the front office has put in place on the OL, specifically on the right side.  They, as Diehard said, plugged holes.  I'm also seriously concerned about the DL. If those two position groups play as I expect, I think this will be the regimes last year. We can say what we want about MP, but this year I put it squarely on Quinn.

We've added in a strong run-blocking veteran RT. He isn't an established starter with a ton of experience but he has a much easier path than a rookie OT stepping into the same shoes. We still have guys like Dahl and Wiggins in the mix to allow our rookie OG's the time to get up to speed. 

Notes from PFF - who have the Lions OL ranked 16th. This is despite losing Glasgow and Wagner, adding the unproven Big V, etc. 

Quote

 

16. DETROIT LIONS
The Lions finished with the No. 11 offensive line last season as they had two players finish in the top 10 at their respective positions — center Frank Ragnow finished sixth and right guard Graham Glasgow finished 10th — while left tackle Taylor Decker ranked 19th. There will be some turnover as Glasgow moves on in free agency and right tackle Rick Wagner also departs.

At tackle, Decker enters the fifth year of his rookie contract, and he has ranked above the league average on true pass sets and run blocking grade on both gap and zone runs since 2016. Left guard Joe Dahl performed well in his first year as a starter in 2019, though it was a bit lopsided as he ranked 23rd with a pass-blocking grade of 73.0, but he finished just 48th as a run blocker at 57.1. Ragnow had the No. 2 grade among centers in the run game at 78.2, showing off the skills that made him one of the best interior offensive line prospects of the PFF College era (since 2014).

The questions are on the right side, where Halapoulivaati Vaitai signed for $45 million over five years to start at right tackle. Vaitai is coming off a career-high 76.2 run block grade, but his pass-blocking grade of just 55.2 since 2016 ranks 84 out of 94 qualifiers, so that remains a major question mark. At right guard, third-round pick Jonah Jackson was our favorite pass protecting guard in the draft, and he has the all-around game to step right in as a starter. He’ll compete with veteran Oday Aboushi, who hasn’t posted an overall grade above 62.7 since 2014. Keep an eye on fourth-rounder Logan Stenberg, who brings excellent power and size to the line and may be a solid starter down the road.

Between Decker, Dahl and Ragnow, the Lions have a strong foundation up front, but the right side of the line will determine where the Lions finish in the end-of-the-season rankings. 

 

 

[LionArkie]

12 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

We've added in a strong run-blocking veteran RT. He isn't an established starter with a ton of experience but he has a much easier path than a rookie OT stepping into the same shoes. We still have guys like Dahl and Wiggins in the mix to allow our rookie OG's the time to get up to speed. 

Notes from PFF - who have the Lions OL ranked 16th. This is despite losing Glasgow and Wagner, adding the unproven Big V, etc. 

 

I know what we added and I know what we lost. We lost a known commodity and gained an unknown one on the ol.  Feel free to believe the Lions improved their OL, I do not.  He was a fantastic back up run blocker who can't pass protect.  I don't think that's a great fit for us.  What did PFF have our defense rated last year before the season started? The year before that? How about our OL? Did it make a difference? Personally, I don't like the lions off season. I feel like we did well in the draft and crapped out in FA. I feel like we lost more experienced talent than what we gained.  We set ourselves up good for the future, but did nothing to help us next year, unless there are 7-10 rookies who are going to carry us.

Honestly, I can't figure Quinn out. Normally, there is some sort of schematic to a team. The Lions under Quinn are very helter skelter. Normally a team will believe in a position group and invest in it.  Like OL, DL, even NE invests in DB.  But it doesn't seem like Quinn does this.  Let me rephrase, he doesn't do this with quality, proven starters, but does it with prove it contracts to players who are high risk/reward.  The only position he seems to do this with are the DB's, but who are our anchors at DB? That's pretty much the only group of players I think he might want to be vested in. Are we set up for the future? Probably, more than likely for another regime to rip apart. If BQ is here for another 5 years, than fine I will concede. But if he has to turn it around within the next year, than I don't see it. Feel free to save this and point out I was wrong at the end of the year, provided there is a season. Nothing would make me happier than being completely wrong. But the best thing that happened this offseason to Quinn is probably covid, because that may be the only thing that brings him back in 2021.

Edited August 19, 2020 by LionArkie

[diehardlionfan]

21 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

A large part of all of this, whether it's from the Patriots castoffs to the pundits is that the Lions organization as a whole is not being given any credit or good faith. They haven't proven it in years past so I get it but it also doesn't guarantee that the team is going to be bad this year. Until the Lions start to string together consistent periods of success the team and the organization will not be given any benefit of the doubt in a down year. If the Seahawks have a down year there isn't a pundit that would write them off and have them in the top 10 for pre-season projections. 

Swift: Many draft experts had Swift as their highest rated RB in the draft process. Maybe you could have made arguments for other guys like CEH or Taylor but we're talking about different flavours of ice cream. Swift is a very, very good RB who is also complimentary to the guys who are already there. He's in the discussions for pre-season OROY. The argument can be made on whether we should have drafted a RB that high and how much more effective he would be than a later round RB. I haven't seen anything about Swift not being a good player. 

I get it. You’re a glass half full Lions fan. 

The Lions haven’t earned any good faith. They’ve proven nothing except incompetence. They had a putrid defence last year and have apparently got a defensive guru as a HC. 

Quinn has had long enough for the team to be improved but has significant issues on both sides of the ball. 

I like Swift and he may have have been the highest rated running back but his selection in the second round indicates to me that no NFL GM though he was a number one back. The Lions have had a running back by committee approach since Sanders retired and it has been nothing except ineffective. If they want to run the ball with second tier backs they need a much better oline. Personally I don’t care about PFF rankings I care about on field results which the Lions don’t deliver. 

The debate about 2nd through 7th round RB’s is a red herring in my mind. It’s irrelevant because short of drafting a top level back the key to running the ball is the scheme and offensive line competence. If you’re not drafting an every down running back then high picks on RB is a misuse of resources in my mind. I also think RB salaries are further evidence of that. 

They have an inadequate pass rush which exposes the secondary for far to long and trading away Slay was in my opinion a mistake as it weakens the secondary. 

The Lions have serious questions at every level except receiver (next year it’s a major problem) and starting QB. I expect to see a team that can’t get to the QB exposing the secondary and an offence that has a marginal running game due to an oline that is okay at everything but excels at nothing. 

Of course it’s all moot because if they get the season off the ground I expect it to be short lived. The U.S. has rampant Covid 19 and isn’t close to getting a handle on it. The players, staff, coaches, travel etc. are all going to increase contacts and given the amount of community transmission it’s not an envious position. I also expect many more players to opt out once more research from autopsies and monitoring survivors is reviewed. 

The research coming out about long term heart, kidney and liver damage is very serious but isn’t even getting talked about. Everyone simply looks at death. without considering what an entire lifetime with a serious heart condition or glass lung would be like.

 

[Sllim Pickens]

2 hours ago, diehardlionfan said:

I like Swift and he may have have been the highest rated running back but his selection in the second round indicates to me that no NFL GM though he was a number one back. The Lions have had a running back by committee approach since Sanders retired and it has been nothing except ineffective. If they want to run the ball with second tier backs they need a much better oline. Personally I don’t care about PFF rankings I care about on field results which the Lions don’t deliver. 

 

I agree with everything you said except the bolded.  I get nobody thought he was a first round need, and the depth of the RB position in the draft hurt him, but he was ranked by most to be the top RB or at least top 3.  Shortly after he was selected, 4 other RBs were drafted.  There was not a Barkley/Zeke type RB in this years draft but plenty of great RBs have come from the 2nd round of the draft recently, just none that we have selected.