flyers0909 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Hall isn't playing Selke level defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 I'll take Hall over Kopitar in the Hart debate, but I'm a devils fan, that's to be expected. They are very close in a lot of facets. 88 points to 86, but Hall with a slightly higher PPG average. Kopitar leads the next highest offensive player on his team by 32 points, 11 goals. Hall 36 points & 10 goals. Neither is playing with an offensive juggernaut surrounding them. That being said, Kopitar still has Doughty on the back end and Jonathan Quick in net. Hall doesn't have anything close to that level of player on the blue line or in net this year. Quick's numbers alone are half a goal less per game than either Schwab or Kinkaid, and a save percentage over a tenth of a point better. Hall's rate stats are just better across the board. c/60 of 16.3 against Kopitar's 6.6. F/60 is nearly three times better at 12.7 against 4.6 if you're into those kind of numbers. While they both have 6 GWG, Hall has had 3 come in overtime, Kopitar doesn't have a single OT game winner yet. His possession numbers are far better as well, if you're into that. While Kopitar has missed Carter for most of the season, Hall has missed Johansson for most of the season, Zajac for 20 games, Palmieri for 20 games. The biggest knock on Hall is that he doesn't kill penalties like Kopitar does (and he doesn't take faceoffs as he's not a center)- but his defensive ability itself isn't lacking. He's been pretty good in that regard this year. He has created more takeaways than Kopitar, logged more hits, and is only slightly behind him in blocked shots (52 / 44). To me, all of the other stuff going on with Hall would put him over Kopitar and his defense in the MVP voting, but again, I maaaaaaaaaaay be a little biased. That being said, Hall is still a winger, and it's a little more difficult for them to get MVP love, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's not in the top 3. I do think that the bit of the hype around him during that point streak will help his cause though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 6 hours ago, flyers0909 said: Hall isn't playing Selke level defense. Then give Kopi the ******* Selke He's still not better than Hall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyers0909 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 They are having eerily similar close seasons at even strength while Kopitar is getting way more DZone draws. On top of that Kopi is on the PK 2+ minutes per night on the best PK team in the league. Hall might be having the slightly better season offensively, but when you take into account defense and position, Kopitar is having the better year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 (edited) 25 minutes ago, flyers0909 said: They are having eerily similar close seasons at even strength while Kopitar is getting way more DZone draws. On top of that Kopi is on the PK 2+ minutes per night on the best PK team in the league. Hall might be having the slightly better season offensively, but when you take into account defense and position, Kopitar is having the better year. Kopi plays on the best defensive team in hockey. A team that's been near the top every damn year lately. Let me guess, he's the reason for it and not Drew Doughty, Dustin Brown and Jonathan Quick... Hall has taken a team full of rag tags, unhealthy vets, a back-up goalie and rookies to a potential playoff berth basically on his own. His next four leading scorers are three rookies and Kyle Palmieri. I'm sorry but you can't take surrounding talent into account for Malkin but then completely ignore it for Kopitar. Taylor Hall, Nico Hischier, Kyle Palmieri, Will Butcher, Jesper Bratt and Miles Wood. Those are our top 6 scorers. Only one of them has > 50 points (Hischier is right on the 50 pt line). Look at those two teams and tell me which player means more to their team. And I don't give two ****s about positions. Edited March 31, 2018 by bkobow05 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 Watch an entire Devils game and you'll see what I mean. We are an entirely different team with #9 on the ice. Without him, we're staring Rasmus Dahlin right in the face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyers0909 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 (edited) The same Dustin Brown who's averaged 33 points over the last 6 seasons? Wouldn't want to forget about Alex Iaffalo, the stud rookie he's playing with that has 25 points. Kopitar is a perennial Selke candidate, if you're questioning his defensive ability it just means you have no clue what you're talking about. And you don't give two ****s about position? That's laughable, a guy who can play center is more valuable than a winger. Nice of you to ignore the zone starts and PK time as well. Post something showing that Taylor Hall is having an offensive season better than Kopitar that outweighs the defensive side of the game other than "watch a Devils game". I know how good Taylor Hall is, he's easily one of the best players in the NHL. As good a season that Giroux is having, he's better than any player on the Flyers, I have zero bias here. But what Kopitar is doing offensively, on top of the stuff he does year in and year out on defense, he's a better Hart candidate than Hall. Edited March 31, 2018 by flyers0909 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 (edited) Well, there you have it. Claude Giroux should be on the Hart list over Hall too in that case... And yes, I believe in Pavel Zacha. Kid is still only 20 years old learning how to play C. He also can't ******* stay healthy and we don't ask him to do much. Is Provy the better player right now? Yeah, absolutely. No doubt about it. I still feel Zacha has top line C potential but it's looking more and more like he won't get there. Is what it is. And no, I wasn't questioning Kopi's defensive ability. Simply pointing out he's in a hell of an environment to succeed on that end. Is he a major part? Yeah, absolutely. Is he the only reason? No, absolutely not. He couldn't come over to New Jersey suddenly take us to the top of the NHL in defense. Edited March 31, 2018 by bkobow05 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 (edited) But if the deciding factor in awards is "well he plays center and he plays wing" then that's bull****. That's what I mean by "I don't give two ****s about position." Hall handles the puck and initiates just as much of the offense in Jersey as Kopi does in LA, regardless of which position they play. That's the point I'm making. Edited March 31, 2018 by bkobow05 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, flyers0909 said: Also, how is this calculated? Just curious, btw. Is it total goals for the season (for the team, not the player) or in games they've played? Because Taylor Hall has 86 pts in the 72 games he's played, the Devils have scored 219 goals. That comes out to 39.3%. EDIT - and I apologize for being abrasive. Something I gotta work on. Edited March 31, 2018 by bkobow05 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mse326 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 @bkobow05 I'm not jumping into this debate even though I guess I somewhat started it. I have Kopitar higher but not by much. What are your arguments for Hall over Kucherov and Rinne? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 58 minutes ago, mse326 said: @bkobow05 I'm not jumping into this debate even though I guess I somewhat started it. I have Kopitar higher but not by much. What are your arguments for Hall over Kucherov and Rinne? Kucherov plays on a loaded offensive team and arguably isn't even the best player on his own line. Rinne plays behind a crazy group of defensemen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mse326 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, bkobow05 said: Kucherov plays on a loaded offensive team and arguably isn't even the best player on his own line. Rinne plays behind a crazy group of defensemen. Stamkos is better but he isn't having a better year. Rinne may be behind a great group of defensemen but he has been the one that holds it down. I think you put far too much emphasis on what else the team has. Hall has been great and I have him 6 but when all your arguments revolve around Devils suck without him that's not good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Slim Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 21 minutes ago, mse326 said: Stamkos is better but he isn't having a better year. Rinne may be behind a great group of defensemen but he has been the one that holds it down. I think you put far too much emphasis on what else the team has. Hall has been great and I have him 6 but when all your arguments revolve around Devils suck without him that's not good enough. i know it's kinda unfair to knock kuch for this but he's also had vasilevsky in net who for large portions of the season has been a hart candidate in and of himself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, mse326 said: Stamkos is better but he isn't having a better year. Rinne may be behind a great group of defensemen but he has been the one that holds it down. I think you put far too much emphasis on what else the team has. Hall has been great and I have him 6 but when all your arguments revolve around Devils suck without him that's not good enough. When the differences are minimal, you're absolutely right I'll put emphasis on what else they have around them. Edited March 31, 2018 by bkobow05 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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