First 2020 Post - How Long Do We Stick With Patricia

[Just Want A Title]

At this point, the most immediate question facing the Detroit Lions is how long do they stick with Matt Patricia.  The only dramatic improvement that has taken place is on Special Teams.  Do the ride out the season that is already excruciating to watch?  Do they fire him after the bye?    
 

Personally, I think they fire Matt Patricia but let Bob Quinn ride out the year.  He can spend his time trying to make some trades and create a better salary cap situation for 2021.  An extension for Kenny Golladay might be helpful also.  Thoughts?

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

My vote: once we're mathematically eliminated from the playoffs. If that happens, and before week 17, I think the trigger can/should be pulled.

[Superduperman]

I wouldn't mind either way. I think odds are less than 50-50 the season gets finished anyway, so there's no real value in firing him now, except for the value of saying "you're a loser, hit the bricks," which i wholeheartedly endorse. But to the overall organization, not much difference. 

One thing I will say: if you fire Patricia, now or later, Quinn has got to go at the same time. I don't know how you could think its a good idea to let him make any more moves, if you decide they've got to go.

[diehardlionfan]

They should be gone.

However this is the Lions. I expect no change now or at seasons end.

[Nnivolcm]

11 hours ago, Superduperman said:

One thing I will say: if you fire Patricia, now or later, Quinn has got to go at the same time. I don't know how you could think its a good idea to let him make any more moves, if you decide they've got to go.

Absolutely. 

[SimbaWho]

I'd fire both this week. It's a bye week for the Lions, interim coach(I assume Bevell) would get a two week stint with this team. Interim Gm would get 2 weeks to look at this roster, etc. A new GM needs to be in place to make trades at the TDL. Guys like WR Marvin Jones/ DE Romeo Okwara/ LB Jarrad Davis/ RB Adrian Peterson might have some value around then; and I don't trust Quinn to make the right moves for the future of the franchise at this point. They need to move on now, to focus on the rebuild that's going to happen this off season.

Also gives the team a head start in the hiring evaluations of any GM they'd like to bring in. 

Lions have an easier schedule coming up so 3 wins in the next 3 weeks doesn't impress me and put the Lions back into perpetual purgatory picking around 12-8th. vs settling up in the top 5 where they actually belong. 

My top GM candidates are Tony Dungy and I think we have to seriously look at Omar Khan from the Steelers organization. The team will have some pieces to work with for whoever is hired. The O-line looks to be pretty solid actually, if they trade Stafford they should pile up some draft picks, there could be a bit of a player shift through FA/releasing players.

The real job the GM hire has is hiring a good HC and trading Stafford for proper value. Steelers/Saints might be players depending on what Big Ben/Breese do. Not sure anymore what you can really get for Stafford. I assume a 1st rdp still or multiple 2nd round picks? Is it worth even trading him at that price if you're the new GM? Idk. Stuff a new hire will have to manage and decide. Could get wild!

Edited October 5, 2020 by SimbaWho

[LionArkie]

39 minutes ago, SimbaWho said:

I'd fire both this week. It's a bye week for the Lions, interim coach(I assume Bevell) would get a two week stint with this team. Interim Gm would get 2 weeks to look at this roster, etc. A new GM needs to be in place to make trades at the TDL. Guys like WR Marvin Jones/ DE Romeo Okwara/ LB Jarrad Davis/ RB Adrian Peterson might have some value around then; and I don't trust Quinn to make the right moves for the future of the franchise at this point. They need to move on now, to focus on the rebuild that's going to happen this off season.

Also gives the team a head start in the hiring evaluations of any GM they'd like to bring in. 

Lions have an easier schedule coming up so 3 wins in the next 3 weeks doesn't impress me and put the Lions back into perpetual purgatory picking around 12-8th. vs settling up in the top 5 where they actually belong. 

My top GM candidates are Tony Dungy and I think we have to seriously look at Omar Khan from the Steelers organization. The team will have some pieces to work with for whoever is hired. The O-line looks to be pretty solid actually, if they trade Stafford they should pile up some draft picks, there could be a bit of a player shift through FA/releasing players.

The real job the GM hire has is hiring a good HC and trading Stafford for proper value. Steelers/Saints might be players depending on what Big Ben/Breese do. Not sure anymore what you can really get for Stafford. I assume a 1st rdp still or multiple 2nd round picks? Is it worth even trading him at that price if you're the new GM? Idk. Stuff a new hire will have to manage and decide. Could get wild!

If I remember right, I wanted Omar Khan last time when Quinn was up for consideration.  Didn't want anything to do with the Patriot organization.  I have to ask though, I have the utmost respect for Dungy as a person and coach, but what makes you think he would be a good GM? I'm not saying he wouldn't be, but just am curious as to why you want him over others.

[SimbaWho]

Just now, LionArkie said:

If I remember right, I wanted Omar Khan last time when Quinn was up for consideration. Didn't want anything to do with the Patriot organization.  I have to ask though, I have the utmost respect for Dungy as a person and coach, but what makes you think he would be a good GM? I'm not saying he wouldn't be, but just am curious as to why you want him over others.

He basically built two organizations, yeah he was just the HC but his finger prints were everywhere on the Colts and Tampa bay organizations. They changed when he left both organizations. He made good hires as assistance, teams has solid philosophy's and played tough, drafted good. I just think he's a football guy and we need a guy running things that's a respected football guy. While Mike Mayock doesn't look like a bad hire, he's prolly less respected than Tony Dungy in NFL circles. So idk making hires like new scouts, head coach, draft, etc, all matter on how serious/credible the opportunity looks. I think Tony Dungy would add a bit of credibility/respect to the organization. 

Other than being a really successful head coach in two different organization and a solid, respected guy. He's basically got no front office experience to work with on a resume. Doesn't mean he doesn't know football though... 

I'm afraid someone like Omar Khan wouldn't want to make the jump to our organization just based on how bad the opportunity and the others he'll be able to get if he just waits a litte longer, he's only 43. 

[LionArkie]

I wonder how many aspiring GM's think, "I can get an opportunity in...Detroit...No thanks! Career killer!".

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

A lot is being made about the following comment from Patricia:

“I mean, that’s a hard question,” Patricia said. “Obviously, we just lost to the Saints. Let’s just give them credit for this game. They played extremely well and I know we’ve got a lot of work to do. Certainly I think when I came to Detroit there was a lot of work to do, and that’s what we’re trying to do.”

Many are taking it as criticism of Caldwell's team, and I see that, but that's not what I thought when I first heard it.

Defensive coaches tend to have scheme preferences. Patricia won multiple Super Bowls as a defensive coordinator of a very specific defense. Naturally, he's going to believe that such a defense is the most effective form. Quinn reinforced this notion when he admitted that, during his first two drafts, he was "drafting guys with skillsets that he was largely unfamiliar with", and that he was glad to bring Patricia on-board because he's "more familiar with those types of players".

Knowing this, it's undeniable that Patricia wanted to revamp the defense. His moves so far clearly haven't had the desired effect, and I think that's what he's alluding to: revamping a defense is a big task, and he's still trying to do that.

[flyguy1609]

my guess is Matty P rides out this season unless we get blown out real bad on national tv 55-10 or something 

[LionArkie]

1 hour ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

A lot is being made about the following comment from Patricia:

“I mean, that’s a hard question,” Patricia said. “Obviously, we just lost to the Saints. Let’s just give them credit for this game. They played extremely well and I know we’ve got a lot of work to do. Certainly I think when I came to Detroit there was a lot of work to do, and that’s what we’re trying to do.”

Many are taking it as criticism of Caldwell's team, and I see that, but that's not what I thought when I first heard it.

Defensive coaches tend to have scheme preferences. Patricia won multiple Super Bowls as a defensive coordinator of a very specific defense. Naturally, he's going to believe that such a defense is the most effective form. Quinn reinforced this notion when he admitted that, during his first two drafts, he was "drafting guys with skillsets that he was largely unfamiliar with", and that he was glad to bring Patricia on-board because he's "more familiar with those types of players".

Knowing this, it's undeniable that Patricia wanted to revamp the defense. His moves so far clearly haven't had the desired effect, and I think that's what he's alluding to: revamping a defense is a big task, and he's still trying to do that.

Knowing this about BQ and his inability to draft for Caldwell and needing a NE coach to make BQ feel comfortable drafting, how would you feel if the Lions fired MP but kept BQ? Furthermore, how confident would you be in him if he took someone outside of NE? How about if he took someone from NE?

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

5 hours ago, LionArkie said:

Knowing this about BQ and his inability to draft for Caldwell and needing a NE coach to make BQ feel comfortable drafting, how would you feel if the Lions fired MP but kept BQ? Furthermore, how confident would you be in him if he took someone outside of NE? How about if he took someone from NE?

Well, honestly, I don't see how Patricia would need to be fired but Quinn should be kept around. If we're blaming Patricia for losing, I blame Quinn for leaving the roster with only Driskel and Blough behind Stafford during 2019.

I don't really see where we separate coaching and personnel decisions when assessing blame. I hear a lot of criticisms about the roster, and many of them are justified: I'm putting those on Quinn.

To me, Patricia and Quinn are a package deal. If you're done with the "NExperiment", they both have to go.

[Nnivolcm]

21 hours ago, SimbaWho said:

A new GM needs to be in place to make trades at the TDL. Guys like WR Marvin Jones/ DE Romeo Okwara/ LB Jarrad Davis/ RB Adrian Peterson might have some value around then; and I don't trust Quinn to make the right moves for the future of the franchise at this point. They need to move on now, to focus on the rebuild that's going to happen this off season.

This is the best argument I've heard for making a move now, I just don't know if it's possible to get the GM you want mid season while most of the candidates are employed by other teams and can't spare the time to go through the hiring process. 

If you go with a interim GM you have to go with one who knows his job is to sell sell sell. 

[Karnage84]

11 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Well, honestly, I don't see how Patricia would need to be fired but Quinn should be kept around. If we're blaming Patricia for losing, I blame Quinn for leaving the roster with only Driskel and Blough behind Stafford during 2019.

I don't really see where we separate coaching and personnel decisions when assessing blame. I hear a lot of criticisms about the roster, and many of them are justified: I'm putting those on Quinn.

To me, Patricia and Quinn are a package deal. If you're done with the "NExperiment", they both have to go.

Stafford was on a roll with a 139 consecutive start streak up until last year. He was the locked in, guaranteed starter. So you aren't going to get guys coming in who see a potential crack and want an opportunity. Otherwise you're usually going to have to pay to get someone as a decent backup. The Cam Newton/Jameis Winston type deals aren't the usual. There is a part of me that does understand not wanting to invest in someone that is likely to never see the field but I also do blame him for leaving the team that exposed if/when he did go down. 

While the two guys are very closely tied and linked, I do think that ownership needs to answer the question for themselves and for us as fans. Is this a coaching issue, a personnel issue or both? If you get rid of Patricia now then you can make a clear distinction between the guys Quinn has brought to the coaching staff and the kind of plays they're making on the field.