GDT Week 6 - Packers @ Vikings

[vegas492]

52 minutes ago, Green19 said:

Let me clarify a few things. I'm talking about the QBs circa 2017 not over their careers. So no Eli isn't the franchise... Odell is, clearly. I agree both Eli and Ryan have helped elevate WRs, I'd say Eli has more than Ryan to this point. But since Eli has had Odell... he has been a shell of his former self in many regards. The greatness of Eli was his ability to go off in 2 playoff runs. Other then that he has been  above average most of his career, when comparing him to Rodgers, Brady, Peyton etc.

I like Ryan a lot, but last year he was like Alex Smith this year. He played out of his mind... how much is that Jones, that running game and Kyle scheming wide open targets? The rest of his years... again good to great but not elite.

Heck Cam won an MVP... yet last night he was missing throws by a mile. MVP doesn't factor into my judgement of a player. Ryan is a good to great QB... he is never going to be the reason an offense is special. Jones is the special player there... the offense runs through him. It's the simple difference of when Jones goes down Ryan can't beat the Bills and when jordy isn't in Rodgers can drive the length of the field for the winning TD.

i don't know if people understand how much Kyle made Kirk Cousins and Ryan look better then they are because he schemed wide open targets... using players like Jones to distract defenses.

My point is teams build their franchise around their special players. So Green Bay has the luxury to not need a Jones type talent on the outside, cause they have it under center. So Ted and them aren't going to waste capital trading up for a Jones. Heck I would love to get Saquon Barkley for Aaron... but for a team that would rather throw and ignore running it most games, it's a waste.

I feel wildly off topic now haha... GB vs Minn

I love your responses.  And?  I agree with them.  Except on Matt Ryan.  I think he's special.  I think he and Julio are both very special, just as Aaron and Jordy were a couple of years ago.

Very true about coaches...I'm not a huge Mac fan, but....I don't know that I'd take even Kyle over him as an offensive mind.  Well, maybe I would right now, because I think a lot of what Mac does is dated and stale.  But, he proved me wrong on that last week.

I would love it if GB could find another special offensive player to pair with Rodgers.  For that to happen, GB has to either get very lucky in the draft and find a kid that develops quickly because Rodgers is no spring chicken, or they need to develop a guy on the roster, and at WR I don't think that guy is there, or they need to bring in a free agent that is somehow free and still have upside.  (Watkins, cough/cough, Watkins)

[Norm]

I'm gonna die at the gamesmanship if Bahk plays

[vikingsrule]

1 hour ago, Herbie_Hancock said:

No Bradford or Diggs. 

 

 

With how Bradford played last week, that's probably not a bad thing for MN. Losing Diggs hurts but Michael Floyd isn't a terrible option to turn to.

[strat1080]

6 hours ago, Pugger said:

MN not having Diggs is a big blow for them.  It makes the potential loss of not having King not so dire.

Yeah. I think that helps our chances tremendously. Honestly I thought our defense was going to look ugly with Diggs in there.

[packfanfb]

22 minutes ago, strat1080 said:

Yeah. I think that helps our chances tremendously. Honestly I thought our defense was going to look ugly with Diggs in there.

Still gotta watch Thielen. I'd put Hawkins on him and House on Floyd. He'll embarrass Randall and especially Rollins out there. Let those guys cover the 4.7 Treadwell.

[strat1080]

8 hours ago, PackyAttacky said:

I don't even care about the first part, but this is terrible. You dont think Jordy is any good or would be any good on any other team, maybe just maybe if we had a TE that had success on another team, like Bennett it would be backed up by stats. This might be the worst take I have ever read.

Where did I say that? I'm not saying that Jordy Nelson isn't any good. What I'm saying is that Aaron Rodgers takes guys like Nelson, Adams and James Jones makes them outproduce guys like Julio Jones AJ Green in TD production. Nelson is a solid #1 WR but lets face it, he's never been voted 1st team All Pro and has only made the Pro Bowl once. He's not an elite WR. He's not anywhere near the level of a Julio Jones, AJ Green, Antonio Brown, Demaryus Thomas and guys of that ilk. He doesn't consistently beat good corners. What happened to Greg Jennings after he left Green Bay? Greg Jennings was the most consistent WR that Rodgers has had in Green Bay. He got consistent separation and consistently had big games against the good teams and great defenses. The guys we have on the team right now fade away against great competition. Sorry but that's just the way it is. Just look at our game against Seattle this year and the game against Denver in 2015. That Denver game was ugly dude. We got freakin crushed. We were held to like 50 yards passing. That was embarrassing. Those Denver DBs made our WR group look like High Schoolers. I realize we didn't have Jordy for that game but it wouldn't have made a difference. We frankly don't have an elite WR on this team that can beat the better corners in the league. Antonio Brown shredded that defense for almost 200 yards in a game that year. Calling that out isn't terrible. Its just the reality.

My main point though, that you didn't seem to understand, is that we haven't invested heavily on offensive skills players yet our defense is trash. We've basically ignored the TE position for years until last year. Peyton Manning was surrounded by 1st round picks on offense at RB, WR, and TE yet the Colts could still produce some good defenses every now and then. I'm not saying the Colts were a consistently great defensive team but every few years they could produce Top 10 and Top 5 defenses. This team isn't very good and we are going to see that again in the playoffs. We're slow on offense and our defense is average at best. We are basically Dan Marino's Dolphins. No running game, mediocre defense and no elite WRs, RBs or TEs.

The bottom line is that if we have to play an elite defense or offense in the playoffs or Super Bowl we aren't going to win. We don't have the offensive playmakers to beat good defenses or a defense good enough to stop an elite offense. Sure, we beat Seattle but we caught some big breaks in that game. We were held to 17 points at home. If you or anybody can't acknowledge that I'm afraid you are going to have your heart broken once again in a few months. I'm just being a realist. I just don't see very much talent on this team and haven't for quite some time. The Packers are a popular team because they've made the playoffs 8 years in a row and many players are well known because of that but there just aren't very many elite players on this team. In my eyes the only elite players on this team are Rodgers and Daniels. You can sit there and trash talk me if you want but this just isn't a Super Bowl caliber team. I hope I'm wrong.

[Green19]

9 minutes ago, strat1080 said:

In my eyes the only elite players on this team are Rodgers and Daniels. You can sit there and trash talk me if you want but this just isn't a Super Bowl caliber team. I hope I'm wrong.

I guess all that I would ask is how many "elite players" do other teams have? Cause I look at New England... they really only have 2, Brady and Gronk. Atlanta... they really only have 1 in Jones. Seattle... Thomas, Wagner, maybe Richardson if he returns to form.

I mean the argument here is "what's elite" but yeah I don't know too many teams rolling 6,7,8 deep in elite talent.

[strat1080]

9 hours ago, incognito_man said:

All of this data is encapsulated in DVOA. MIN also gave up 7 more points than season avg to Pittsburgh and GB held Seattle to 10 fewer points than their season avg. You are cherry picking to fit your constant, silly agenda. 

Last year means absolutely nothing. It couldn't be less important.

Fact is, MIN and GB defenses are performing similarly so far this season. To think otherwise is to deny reality. 

Well my point about last year is think its absolutely asinine to pretend that a 5 game sample this year is anywhere near enough to draw a definitive conclusion. I'm not cherry picking. I deliberately chose performance against Top 12 offenses because each team has played two games against those types of teams. I care how defenses perform against good offenses. I could care less how our defense looks against Mike Glennon or a terrible Seattle offense. That isn't going to help us win a Super Bowl. However, holding a good offense to under 20 points will certainly help in that regard. And unfortunately I just can't see this defense ever doing that for the forseeable future. This defense just isn't very good. I just really don't see our defense as comparable to Minnesota. That just doesn't pass the eye test. That Vikings defense makes teams fight for every yard and nothing is easy. 3rd down conversions are difficult against them and they our stout in the red zone. Our defense looks like a joke against good offenses. I just don't see it dude. The important thing to me is points and in that regard we are significantly inferior to the Vikings. Even your own data that you posted points that out.

Your silly stats trying to point out how comparable our defense is to Minnesota's ignored how good Minnesota is in the red zone and how lousy we are there. Sure we are giving up yardage at about the same clip but we can't stop teams in the red zone. Minnesota is a Top 5 red zone defense this year and we are the 2nd worst. Like I told you before. We are a bend don't break defense that breaks. Sure we don't give up big plays but teams drive down the field and score TDs on us. Our defense sucks dude. Any decent team is going to put up 24+ points on us.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opponent-red-zone-scoring-pct

[LargeFarva]

48 minutes ago, strat1080 said:

I'm just being a realist.

You don't sound like a realist. You sound like a delusional, irrational, catastrophizing lunatic.

[SpeightTheVillain]

4 hours ago, skibrett15 said:

Well, not if you're the Falcons I guess? Or the 9ers with Jerry Rice?

It's definitely possible to have a good not great QB and an all-time WR and have a great offense.  The Eagles with TO are a pretty good modern example of that also.

 

Is it better to have an amazing QB, sure.  QBs are more important.  But you shouldn't pass on an amazing WR

I totally disagree. You just named teams with great QBs. Montana? Young? Ryan? Early 2000s McNabb? All great QBs. Not all HOF quality but great in their primes.

Calvin's Lions. Green's Bengals, Hopkins' Texans are much better examples. There is absolutely no sense in dropping a large portion of your cap in one wideout. They touch the ball at most 10 times a game.

 

[StinkySauce]

6 hours ago, vegas492 said:

I would love it if GB could find another special offensive player to pair with Rodgers.  

I think if he sticks around here, Adams will be your guy.  It's hard to remember all of Jordy's early years' drops, now that we've been blessed with a career filled with his sideline heroics.  But Adams is still young and still developing, and I think we could see him turn into something special.

[ThatJerkDave]

Oh hell yes! I get to watch from my living room again!

[packfanfb]

Worried about Monty carrying the ball with that flak jacket. I hope he plays but we just use him creatively like motioning him into the slot, out wide and maybe some two back plays with Jones. I wouldn't give Monty more than 1 or 2 straight on handoffs, you have Jones for that who ia the better between the tackles runner anyways.

[ThatJerkDave]

If it were up to me, and it isn't, I would sit Montgomery until the Lions game after the bye.  Give that injury more time to heal, decrease his overall workload.  Roll with the rookies this week, and if they do well enough, do it again against the Saints.  

[TheOnlyThing]

Based upon Friday's injury report, there will be no Burnett at Safety. Very doubtful that King plays and if House goes he will probably still be limited. Also, unlikely to have Brooks at outside linebacker.

Need contributions from Brice & J. Jones at S, Randall, Rollins, and possibly Hawkins at CB, and Fackrell at OLB.