Do you think Josh Allen is going to change how people view QB Development?

[VanS]

16 hours ago, Chiefer said:

He’s not better than Mahomes/Rodgers 

he’s well on his way though. 
 

Even after Mahomes post season run, or the winning streak this year, you’d still take Josh over him. That’s dedication bro I give you props for that.

I rate players based on their talent and ability not the results.  Mahomes run has more to do with his supporting cast IMO than him.  I'm not saying he isn't an elite talent (he is), I just think he has benefitted from the best weapons in the league and an offensive mastermind of a head coach.  Give Josh Allen those weapons and coaching staff and I think he does just as good (if not better).

The truth about who is better between Josh Allen and Mahomes will be revealed over the long term (as is the case with any two players).  Situations are only temporary.  Talent is what stays the same.  So as the supporting casts of Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes change over the next 10-15 years, we'll see who ultimately has the better career.  Mahomes has the head start right given the favorable position he ended up at.  We'll see if it lasts or if he has a future where like Aaron Rodgers (for example) he has to carry a subpar team for several years on his back. 

All I know is in a vacuum I'm taking Allen over Mahomes because I believe he is the superior talent. 

[CP3MVP]

17 hours ago, VanS said:

This is where you are wrong.  Josh Allen did not have terrible accuracy in his first 2 years or in college.  I actually watched his tape rather than just looking at the box score.  The guy had poor talent around him in Wyoming and during his first 2 years in the league.  This is probably the first year in his life he has a great supporting cast around him hence the huge increase in production.

If you actually watched Josh Allen closely you would know something like this was coming.  I literally spent months on here predicting it would happen.

FTR none of us have most likely watched tape of Josh Allen from high school so I have no idea how you would know whether his accuracy was terrible.  I hope you understand stats don't tell the full story.  Its the reason scouts watch tape rather than drafting players based on their stats. 

You’re completely wrong on all of this and there’s a reason why the vast majority of players who had his level of accuracy issues in HS and college flop in the league. This is like a once in a generation turn around.

“Scouts” are wrong all the time. That’s why Qbs bust every year

Edited December 28, 2020 by CP3MVP

[VanS]

10 hours ago, CP3MVP said:

You’re completely wrong on all of this and there’s a reason why the vast majority of players who had his level of accuracy issues in HS and college flop in the league. This is like a once in a generation turn around.

“Scouts” are wrong all the time. That’s why Qbs bust every year

How am I wrong when I was literally saying this exact same thing BEFORE the 2018 draft? 

I have multiple posts on this very site arguing with folks saying that Josh Allen being an inaccurate passer is a myth.  I even laid out the reasons why his completion percentage was low based on what I saw on tape.  I highlighted 3 reasons: 

(1) lack of talent in the supporting cast - I said Josh's o-line was terrible and gave him almost zero time to go through his progressions.  I also pointed out how his receivers lacked the speed to get separation.  And when they did get open they would drop catchable balls.  At Wyoming Josh was literally carrying the Mountain West's equivalent of Vanderbilt.  How do you think Trevor Lawrence would look if he played at Vanderbilt and had to play against the rest of the SEC with that supporting cast?

(2) an offense that was not conducive to a high completion % - the Wyoming coaching staff did not have a lot of easy high percentage throws in the offense.  Almost every pass was past the sticks.  Very little underneath stuff.  Its almost like they wanted to show off Josh's arm by designing an offense focused on high degree of difficulty throws

(3) a Brett Favre mentality - to me this was the only flaw I saw in Josh's game.  He had a tendency to always wanna make the big play rather than simply take what the defense gave him.  I said risk-taking like this is good to a degree but you need balance.  He had a tendency to sometimes get reckless because of his competitiveness.  We saw this last year in the Patriots game when he threw 3 picks lost the game for his team.  Since then I think he has reeled in this one flaw in his game.

This was essentially my take on the whole Josh Allen is inaccurate trope.  I never saw him as inaccurate.  If I did, I wouldn't have spent nearly 3 years defending him and saying he would be as good as he's shown to be this season. 

[BroncoSojia]

His success is causing a lot of Bronco fans to cling to the hope that Drew Lock drastically improves next year.

[Awsi Dooger]

I have no idea why anyone cares about outliers. Also I suspect Josh Allen's accuracy issues are hardly gone. Everything tends to drift back to the beginning. I suggest the Bills play from the lead like recent weeks as opposed to relying on Allen to make key late down plays down the stretch. Otherwise it's going to look like that Rams game, which ends very differently minus one shaky call. 

[bigbadbuff]

6 minutes ago, Awsi Dooger said:

I have no idea why anyone cares about outliers. Also I suspect Josh Allen's accuracy issues are hardly gone. Everything tends to drift back to the beginning. I suggest the Bills play from the lead like recent weeks as opposed to relying on Allen to make key late down plays down the stretch. Otherwise it's going to look like that Rams game, which ends very differently minus one shaky call. 

Or he never had as bad of accuracy “issues” as you think he did..

Also suggest you look at his career in 4th quarters before you make blind assumptions.

Rams game  shaky call like the “interception” they were gifted to even be in a position to come back.

Lazy post. Be better.

[TheKillerNacho]

8 minutes ago, bigbadbuff said:

Or he never had as bad of accuracy “issues” as you think he did..

Also suggest you look at his career in 4th quarters before you make blind assumptions.

Rams game  shaky call like the “interception” they were gifted to even be in a position to come back.

Lazy post. Be better.

Wait what

I don't think its even debatable that he had accuracy issues. That was his knock going back to college and he had a completion ratio of 52.8% and 58.8% respectively in his first two NFL seasons - which is absolutely putrid no matter how you slice it by NFL standards.

That said, obviously he has miraculously improved in his third season. It remains to be seen whether these accuracy issues will crop up again in the future, but - I said last season that I saw the second coming of Big Ben in him and he's double downed this season. He has a very bright outlook. But to say Josh Allen didn't have troubling accuracy issues up to this point is pretty baffling.

[Uncle Buck]

On 12/25/2020 at 8:44 AM, CP3MVP said:

Allen had terrible accuracy in HS, terrible accuracy in college and was terrible his first 2 seasons. He’s had an all time level turnaround in his improvement this season.  I see a lot of people saying things like, “this is why you shouldn’t give up on young QBs, look at josh Allen”.  I’ve seen people use this for Drew Lock for example.

The problem is Josh is an extreme outlier, the vast majority of QBs who had terrible accuracy pre NFL never became accurate once they got to the Pros. This is like a once in a generation style turnaround. It should also be noted that Josh has all time arm and physical tools, most Qbs don’t have that. 
 

So do you think his success is going to change how people evaluate QBs? What should GMs and coaches learn from this?

Do you need all time great arm strength to improve your accuracy?  I don't see the correlation.  It seems to me that if they were able to help him change what he is doing wrong, they should be able to do that with others, at least those who suffer from the same problems he had.

[The BILLievers]

2 hours ago, Awsi Dooger said:

I have no idea why anyone cares about outliers. Also I suspect Josh Allen's accuracy issues are hardly gone. Everything tends to drift back to the beginning. I suggest the Bills play from the lead like recent weeks as opposed to relying on Allen to make key late down plays down the stretch. Otherwise it's going to look like that Rams game, which ends very differently minus one shaky call. 

Lol. Im pretty sure he leads the nfl in 4th quarter comebacks since he’s been the starter. and has 0 INTs in the red zone since he entered the NFL. More yards than Rodgers this year and more total TDs than mahomes this year. They’re obviously better rn but don’t die on this hill. 

[VanS]

7 hours ago, BroncoSojia said:

His success is causing a lot of Bronco fans to cling to the hope that Drew Lock drastically improves next year.

Drew Lock has nowhere close to the level of talent Josh Allen does.  Both as a rookie and in Year 2 Allen showed flashes of brilliance Drew Lock hasn't.

With that said, I think the Broncos should stick with Lock.  He can be a solid starter in this league.  His floor is what Andy Dalton used to be with a ceiling of Matthew Stafford. 

[VanS]

3 hours ago, Awsi Dooger said:

I have no idea why anyone cares about outliers. Also I suspect Josh Allen's accuracy issues are hardly gone. Everything tends to drift back to the beginning. I suggest the Bills play from the lead like recent weeks as opposed to relying on Allen to make key late down plays down the stretch. Otherwise it's going to look like that Rams game, which ends very differently minus one shaky call. 

LOL.   Josh Allen is actually remarkably clutch.  The Bills leads the league in 3rd down convertions because of him.  And he has a pretty good track record leading 4th quarter comebacks.

 

Edited December 31, 2020 by VanS

[VanS]

2 hours ago, TheKillerNacho said:

Wait what

I don't think its even debatable that he had accuracy issues. That was his knock going back to college and he had a completion ratio of 52.8% and 58.8% respectively in his first two NFL seasons - which is absolutely putrid no matter how you slice it by NFL standards.

That said, obviously he has miraculously improved in his third season. It remains to be seen whether these accuracy issues will crop up again in the future, but - I said last season that I saw the second coming of Big Ben in him and he's double downed this season. He has a very bright outlook. But to say Josh Allen didn't have troubling accuracy issues up to this point is pretty baffling.

He never had accuracy issues.  That was an issue of lack of talent around him.  Go back and look at his WRs and TEs as a rookie and tell me how many of them are starting in the league right now?  Even last year he had one of the weakest group of skill positon players in the league.

This is the first year he has a true #1 WR and it shows.  Its why his passing numbers have sky-rocketing.

[The BILLievers]

2 hours ago, TheKillerNacho said:

Wait what

I don't think its even debatable that he had accuracy issues. That was his knock going back to college and he had a completion ratio of 52.8% and 58.8% respectively in his first two NFL seasons - which is absolutely putrid no matter how you slice it by NFL standards.

That said, obviously he has miraculously improved in his third season. It remains to be seen whether these accuracy issues will crop up again in the future, but - I said last season that I saw the second coming of Big Ben in him and he's double downed this season. He has a very bright outlook. But to say Josh Allen didn't have troubling accuracy issues up to this point is pretty baffling.

I think there’s a difference between completion percentage and accuracy. I went and re watched a lot of Wyoming games / Bills games (the first 1/2 years with Allen) and he had zero talent at WRs and no OL. Parlay that with him being an unpolished rookie and its not hard To see why he struggled in Buffalo. 

1 minute ago, VanS said:

LOL.   Josh Allen is actually remarkably clutch.  The Bills leads the league in 3rd down convertions because of him.  And he has a pretty good track record leading 4th quarter comeback.

 

The fact they made an account on a football site thinking Allen sucks under pressure is hilarious. 

[CP3MVP]

On 12/29/2020 at 2:43 AM, VanS said:

How am I wrong when I was literally saying this exact same thing BEFORE the 2018 draft? 

I have multiple posts on this very site arguing with folks saying that Josh Allen being an inaccurate passer is a myth.  I even laid out the reasons why his completion percentage was low based on what I saw on tape.  I highlighted 3 reasons: 

(1) lack of talent in the supporting cast - I said Josh's o-line was terrible and gave him almost zero time to go through his progressions.  I also pointed out how his receivers lacked the speed to get separation.  And when they did get open they would drop catchable balls.  At Wyoming Josh was literally carrying the Mountain West's equivalent of Vanderbilt.  How do you think Trevor Lawrence would look if he played at Vanderbilt and had to play against the rest of the SEC with that supporting cast?

(2) an offense that was not conducive to a high completion % - the Wyoming coaching staff did not have a lot of easy high percentage throws in the offense.  Almost every pass was past the sticks.  Very little underneath stuff.  Its almost like they wanted to show off Josh's arm by designing an offense focused on high degree of difficulty throws

(3) a Brett Favre mentality - to me this was the only flaw I saw in Josh's game.  He had a tendency to always wanna make the big play rather than simply take what the defense gave him.  I said risk-taking like this is good to a degree but you need balance.  He had a tendency to sometimes get reckless because of his competitiveness.  We saw this last year in the Patriots game when he threw 3 picks lost the game for his team.  Since then I think he has reeled in this one flaw in his game.

This was essentially my take on the whole Josh Allen is inaccurate trope.  I never saw him as inaccurate.  If I did, I wouldn't have spent nearly 3 years defending him and saying he would be as good as he's shown to be this season. 

If you’re going to argue that his accuracy sucked in HS and college because of Lack talent than you would have to consent that the talent he went up against sucked as well. It evens out. He flat out regularly missed people. You acting like he was in the SEC or some crap. And don’t dare put Trevor Lawrence and Josh in the same sentence 
 

Also the whole he was throwing downfield every play was nonsense as well

[bigbadbuff]

2 hours ago, CP3MVP said:

If you’re going to argue that his accuracy sucked in HS and college because of Lack talent than you would have to consent that the talent he went up against sucked as well. It evens out. He flat out regularly missed people. You acting like he was in the SEC or some crap. And don’t dare put Trevor Lawrence and Josh in the same sentence 
 

Also the whole he was throwing downfield every play was nonsense as well

lol wut

 

I hope you are talking about as prospects, which I would agree. If you are talking about currently the bolded is laughable.