Lions signed Brad Holmes as new gm

[Millenhater]

I think if/when Campbell is the guy and he starts talking its going to be easy to route for him.  It all comes down to winning and honestly I think anyone that comes in is going to have a little bit of instant success.  I’ve come to think that Patricia was that bad.  Like honestly he made players and play callers worse.  The thing with the new HC is can he continue to elevate the play. Getting guys to rally is one thing, and I think Campbell will be able to do that, it’s finding ways to win whether that’s through scheme or play calling.  I really hope we get this right.

[Nnivolcm]

45 minutes ago, Millenhater said:

I’ve come to think that Patricia was that bad.  

[Millenhater]

2 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

Haha.  Sorry I meant THAT bad.  Like everything he touched turned to S***.  

[SimbaWho]

On 1/16/2021 at 7:12 AM, LionArkie said:

Holy !*&$ The end is near!!!! j/k.

I'm really on the fence on this one.  It was not my preferred, but I'll try to support it.  I do feel a little better about this hire than I did Quintricia and Marinelli. So there is that. The coordinators are going to make it or break it for me. If we land a staff of all 1st time play callers, I'm going to hate this.

 

What about if they hire a guy like Tom Herman as OC. That make you feel weird, good, bad, meh?

[Superduperman]

I think you're right that Campbell will be an automatic improvement, unless he brings his own truckload of major malfunctions, and there's no sign of that as far as we know.

But being better than a dumpster fire isn't what we're aiming for. It's not good enough. Mediocre Caldwell wasn't good enough and that’s where the bar has to remain. I give Holmes and Campbell two seasons to show me the arrow is pointed at a Super Bowl. Not by saying thats their goal, but by showing they have a chance to get there. Two seasons.

[Karnage84]

8 hours ago, Superduperman said:

I think you're right that Campbell will be an automatic improvement, unless he brings his own truckload of major malfunctions, and there's no sign of that as far as we know.

But being better than a dumpster fire isn't what we're aiming for. It's not good enough. Mediocre Caldwell wasn't good enough and that’s where the bar has to remain. I give Holmes and Campbell two seasons to show me the arrow is pointed at a Super Bowl. Not by saying thats their goal, but by showing they have a chance to get there. Two seasons.

What's your measuring stick of success by year 2?

[LionArkie]

17 hours ago, SimbaWho said:

 

What about if they hire a guy like Tom Herman as OC. That make you feel weird, good, bad, meh?

meh with a side of eye roll.

[LionArkie]

9 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

What's your measuring stick of success by year 2?

I'm interested in others measuring sticks as well.

For me, I will give them the same courtesy I did Quintricia. Since I'm not overly ecstatic about these hires or direction this team seems to be moving, I'm on the "I'll give them the benefit of the doubt although they absolutely don't deserve it" wagon. I will give them 3 years to prove they are moving in the right direction. This will even be more necessary if they trade Stafford, which I don't believe to be the case.

With Stafford, I will expect them to be at 8-8 by year two and looking like an NFL team. Year 3 competing for a playoff spot. Year 5 in the mix with a real shot at winning the division. These are my standards. There are a lot of subjective parts to this though. If they bungle their way to 8-8 like only the Lions can, that is different to me than most NFL teams.  I want a NFL 8-8 team, not a Lions 8-8 team by year two if that makes sense.  The biggest question is, did Quinn give this team enough talent to get to an NFL 8-8 by year two?

Edited January 18, 2021 by LionArkie

[Sllim Pickens]

I feel like people are skewed by all time greats and thinking that overhauls of rosters take time.  We likely won't have sustained success in winning the division like New England or Pittsburgh, but also shouldn't take more than two years to turn it around to be competing for the playoffs.  In the NFL, playoff teams rotate every year, and teams go from really bad to really good quite quickly.  You can see in year two if the progress is being made and a coach is headed in the right direction.  Look at Miami.  Absolute trash last year, in the playoff hunt this year, no drama, even with competition at QB and they are getting more out of players than their draft status says they should.  Thats what I want to see here.  Player development, winning culture, and a team that wants to fight for their head coach, not fight with their head coach.  There isn't an exact win/loss record I need to see but more of just a direction however there are very few head coaches that are under .500 both of their first two years and then turn into successful coaches.   So hoping one of those two years we have at least a .500 record. 

[Karnage84]

1 hour ago, LionArkie said:

I'm interested in others measuring sticks as well.

For me, I will give them the same courtesy I did Quintricia. Since I'm not overly ecstatic about these hires or direction this team seems to be moving, I'm on the "I'll give them the benefit of the doubt although they absolutely don't deserve it" wagon. I will give them 3 years to prove they are moving in the right direction. This will even be more necessary if they trade Stafford, which I don't believe to be the case.

With Stafford, I will expect them to be at 8-8 by year two and looking like an NFL team. Year 3 competing for a playoff spot. Year 5 in the mix with a real shot at winning the division. These are my standards. There are a lot of subjective parts to this though. If they bungle their way to 8-8 like only the Lions can, that is different to me than most NFL teams.  I want a NFL 8-8 team, not a Lions 8-8 team by year two if that makes sense.  The biggest question is, did Quinn give this team enough talent to get to an NFL 8-8 by year two?

I'm in the same boat. I'll be giving them 3 years to turn things around. That is with or without Stafford. With Stafford I have expectations that they should complete the turn around much faster because of having competent QB play, with a good RB in Swift, top level TE (Hock) and a pretty decent OL. If Holmes is the guy that he is being presented as, we should be adding a lot of good players over the next 2 drafts. 

What I am intrigued about is really settling the age old question: who was the bigger problem - Quinn or Patricia? If someone like Tavai or Davis suddenly blossoms in a new role, you might pin that on Patricia for poor coaching. If there is a wholesale change of Quinn picks by year 2, then you'd have to lay a good chunk of the blame on Quinn for drafting bad players. I remember when Patricia was coming into the role and he kept preaching "versatility" and "multiple". If a guy is here who can't adapt to our new scheme, regardless of what it is, they probably weren't that great of a player to begin with. 

My expectations, clearly outlined are:

Year 1: With Stafford = 8-8, in the playoff mix; without Stafford = Be competitive in every game, don't get blown out, win a game(s) you're not expected to. 

Year 2: 8-8, in the playoff mix

Year 3: >0.500, division contender, min. wildcard appearance

 

With a wholesale defensive turnover and the possibility of bringing in a rookie QB, I'm willing to allow 2021 to be a building year. I just want to see the same type of competitiveness that we have seen from Miami last year and the Chargers this year. If Stafford is still on the roster then we should be getting a running start. I can't remember the exact details but someone had mentioned that under Patricia we were giving up 300-400 yards/game and 28+ points. Stafford and the offense would have to be near perfect every game just to have a chance to win. If we can get our defense down to at least middle of the pack, there is no reason that we shouldn't be able to string more W's together. 

 

I wouldn't be opposed to adding someone like Anthony Lynn on the staff but what I really and truly hope is that IF Stafford is going to be coming back, he gets a say in who the OC is, that we bring back Bevell and give him the title of AHC. Let Bevell run the offense... he has a lot of experience in the league, calls plays and was far from the problem here in Detroit. Find an extremely experienced DC with HC experience (Wade Phillips is not a bad choice IMO) and then find a young guy like the Saints DL coach, Ryan Nielsen, and give him a title of like co-DC, run game coordinator, etc. Something that would be considered a promotion. We'd have stability in the franchise (Bevell), we'd have experience (Phillips) and we'd have young and upcoming talent (Nielsen) all under the direction of a fresh, new voice (Campbell). 

[Karnage84]

Albert Breer is reporting on Brad Holmes and his direction for the team. 

1) Mike Disner is going to take on a more prominent role in the organization. This will allow Holmes to focus on scouting. 

2) Holmes has a "bold plan" for the roster

and Campbell will be confirmed on Wednesday. I'd have to imagine we'll be hearing about his coordinators soon enough afterwards. 

 

[Nnivolcm]

54 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Holmes has a "bold plan" for the roster

[Superduperman]

Sounds a little like what the Lions had with Mayhew and Lewand, one guy doing more personnel and one guy doing more business. I'm not saying that to downplay it, it sounds like a fine plan if the people involved are good at their jobs.

As for my yardstick, and when I say two seasons, I have to see a franchise who has the arrow pointed at a Super Bowl and are taking real steps in that direction. I can't give you a number of wins or whatever. I gotta see a consistent identity, identifing what the Lions are going to do game in and game out that we can count on. I need to see development of players in roles that make sense and allow them to succeed. In the next two drafts, the ability to find players who are going to contribute quickly to a team that needs a massive talent upgrade. I need there to be no units on the team that are obvious and fatal malfunctions, and aren't meaningfully addressed. If the team is 6-10 in year 2, and yet we see some of those things, then you can have a little patience.

The difference between a team I can start to believe in and the S.O.L. is kinda like the difference between art and pornography: I can't tell you exactly what it is, but I know it when I see it.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Superduperman

[Karnage84]

1 hour ago, Superduperman said:

Sounds a little like what the Lions had with Mayhew and Lewand, one guy doing more personnel and one guy doing more business. I'm not saying that to downplay it, it sounds like a fine plan if the people involved are good at their jobs.

As for my yardstick, and when I say two seasons, I have to see a franchise who has the arrow pointed at a Super Bowl and are taking real steps in that direction. I can't give you a number of wins or whatever. I gotta see a consistent identity, identifing what the Lions are going to do game in and game out that we can count on. I need to see development of players in roles that make sense and allow them to succeed. In the next two drafts, the ability to find players who are going to contribute quickly to a team that needs a massive talent upgrade. I need there to be no units on the team that are obvious and fatal malfunctions, and aren't meaningfully addressed. If the team is 6-10 in year 2, and yet we see some of those things, then you can have a little patience.

The difference between a team I can start to believe in and the S.O.L. is kinda like the difference between art and pornography: I can't tell you exactly what it is, but I know it when I see it.

How can you support a 6-10 franchise in year 2 with no real distinction on what "arrow pointed at a Super Bowl" means? 

Hindsight is 20/20 but the argument could have been made that the Quintricia Lions were headed in that direction at the end of the 2019 season. With a Stafford led offense we would likely have finished at worst 8-8. There was clearly a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes, Patricia rubbed some guys the wrong way, they drafted too scheme dependent, etc. and 2021 was a mess. However, I don't really see a distinction between Quintricia finishing 6-10 in year 2 as opposed to saying that you'd be ok with Campbell/Holmes being 6-10 in year 2 but somehow a SB is on the horizon. 

I am always going to cheer for the Lions and whomever is running the show. Whether I expect them to win or not is a different story. There were signs that we could right the ship with a healthy Stafford and additional pieces to the defense that fit Patricia's scheme. When it became evident that it wasn't going to happen, my patience had been worn out and it was time for him to go. I'll be giving Campbell and Holmes that same timeline with the same expectations. Maybe it's just me, but I won't be happy with a 6-10 record in year 2. 

[Nnivolcm]

32 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

How can you support a 6-10 franchise in year 2 with no real distinction on what "arrow pointed at a Super Bowl" means? 

Hindsight is 20/20 but the argument could have been made that the Quintricia Lions were headed in that direction at the end of the 2019 season. With a Stafford led offense we would likely have finished at worst 8-8. There was clearly a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes, Patricia rubbed some guys the wrong way, they drafted too scheme dependent, etc. and 2021 was a mess. However, I don't really see a distinction between Quintricia finishing 6-10 in year 2 as opposed to saying that you'd be ok with Campbell/Holmes being 6-10 in year 2 but somehow a SB is on the horizon. 

I am always going to cheer for the Lions and whomever is running the show. Whether I expect them to win or not is a different story. There were signs that we could right the ship with a healthy Stafford and additional pieces to the defense that fit Patricia's scheme. When it became evident that it wasn't going to happen, my patience had been worn out and it was time for him to go. I'll be giving Campbell and Holmes that same timeline with the same expectations. Maybe it's just me, but I won't be happy with a 6-10 record in year 2. 

Many if not most of us had 20/20 foresight with Quintricia in 2019...