CP3MVP Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 9 minutes ago, Archimedes said: You’re right, it hasn’t. But if you have the most talented offensive supporting cast in the league, and you’re elite, you should have, at minimum, a top 3 season statistically. Brady didn’t. As far as Tannehill, are we seriously about to have a debate on whether he’s elite or not??? Like seriously??? He’s a good QB who replaced a crappy one. Good for him, but it doesn’t make him elite. As far as Tampa’s DVOA improving, they upgraded from a crappy QB to a good one, and added even more talent on offense (Brown and Gronkowski) after already having one of the best receiving duos in the league. That’s what changed. Brady wasn’t elite this year. He wasn’t borderline elite. He was a pretty good QB on an extremely talented team. 3rd In DYAR And 3rd in DVOA that’s elite. lol at traditional stats. It’s like saying Tampa had the 3rd best offense in 2019 when they scored the 3rd most points or NE having the best defense in 2016 because they allowed the fewest. Im going to say it Brady more than Gronk who was a shell of himself as a pass catcher for most of the year or brown who played 8 games and they were dominant before him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archimedes Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 26 minutes ago, CP3MVP said: 3rd In DYAR And 3rd in DVOA that’s elite. 8th in ANY/A 9th in QBR 9th in Passer Rating 6th in EPA+CPOE A quarterback ELO rating of 212 (Ben Roethlisberger’s was 219 for reference) No, not elite. 35 minutes ago, CP3MVP said: lol at traditional stats. It’s like saying Tampa had the 3rd best offense in 2019 when they scored the 3rd most points or NE having the best defense in 2016 because they allowed the fewest. Please point to where I used “traditional stats” anywhere. I’ll wait. 36 minutes ago, CP3MVP said: Im going to say it Brady more than Gronk who was a shell of himself as a pass catcher for most of the year or brown who played 8 games and they were dominant before him. It was more Brady, because he A) plays the most important position on the field and B) replaced a player who was terrible. With that said... Antonio Brown was the 3rd option on the team. In spite of barely having played in over a year he came in mid-season and had almost 500 yards. No team’s #3 receiving option is as good as him. Gronk, while not being anywhere near what he once was, is the 4th option and had over 600 yards. I don’t think any team’s 4th option is as good as him. AND they have one of the best 1-2 receiving duos in the league. AND then he has a solid back in Jones. If Brady didn’t have a pretty good year with that much talent, then it would have been time to call him beyond washed. Even with all that talent, he needed to be bailed out by his defense in the NFCCG in the 2nd half. He’s not elite anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Archimedes said: 8th in ANY/A 9th in QBR 9th in Passer Rating 6th in EPA+CPOE A quarterback ELO rating of 212 (Ben Roethlisberger’s was 219 for reference) No, not elite. Please point to where I used “traditional stats” anywhere. I’ll wait. It was more Brady, because he A) plays the most important position on the field and B) replaced a player who was terrible. With that said... Antonio Brown was the 3rd option on the team. In spite of barely having played in over a year he came in mid-season and had almost 500 yards. No team’s #3 receiving option is as good as him. Gronk, while not being anywhere near what he once was, is the 4th option and had over 600 yards. I don’t think any team’s 4th option is as good as him. AND they have one of the best 1-2 receiving duos in the league. AND then he has a solid back in Jones. If Brady didn’t have a pretty good year with that much talent, then it would have been time to call him beyond washed. Even with all that talent, he needed to be bailed out by his defense in the NFCCG in the 2nd half. He’s not elite anymore. Yeah I’m going with 3rd in DYAR and DVOA. Yeah so it was mostly Brady. The offense was terrible last season without Him 23rd in DOVA and now they’re great with him(3rd). It’s like How NE was 11th in DOVA on offense last year with Brady but in the 20’s without him. Brown played 8 games less than 50% of the snaps in most cases and the team was great before he got there, 6-2. Ronald Jones and LF are below average overall backs. LF literally sucked all year until the playoffs. Yeah he had a bad second half of game which means he wasn’t elite. Get out of here lol Edited January 30, 2021 by CP3MVP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archimedes Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 4 minutes ago, CP3MVP said: Yeah I’m going with 3rd in DYAR and DVOA. Well sure you will. You’ve found two stats that support your false belief Brady was elite. I’d stick with those if I were you as well. 5 minutes ago, CP3MVP said: Yeah so it was mostly Brady. The offense was terrible last season without Him 23rd in DOVA and now they’re great with him(3rd). Already covered. Not going over it again. 8 minutes ago, CP3MVP said: Brown played 8 games less than 50% of the snaps in most cases and the team was great before he got there, 6-2. Ronald Jones and LF are below average overall backs. Lol, at using team record. We’re talking about the offense specifically. Tampa had 1 40 point game before adding AB. They had 3 more after he came. They had 3 400 yard games before he came. They had 5 more after, and that includes 2 500+ yard games, something they didn’t do prior to him coming. Brady’s play noticeably ticked upward after the 2nd Carolina game, which was AB’s 2nd game with the team. Gee, it almost looks like adding yet another talented receiver to an already stacked offense helped it take off. Jones is a below average back. Cool story. Dude finished 12th in rushing yards and had the 6th best YPC of the top 15 leaders in rushing yards. But I’m sure you’ll figure out a way to credit Brady for his production too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Archimedes said: Well sure you will. You’ve found two stats that support your false belief Brady was elite. I’d stick with those if I were you as well. Already covered. Not going over it again. Lol, at using team record. We’re talking about the offense specifically. Tampa had 1 40 point game before adding AB. They had 3 more after he came. They had 3 400 yard games before he came. They had 5 more after, and that includes 2 500+ yard games, something they didn’t do prior to him coming. Brady’s play noticeably ticked upward after the 2nd Carolina game, which was AB’s 2nd game with the team. Gee, it almost looks like adding yet another talented receiver to an already stacked offense helped it take off. Jones is a below average back. Cool story. Dude finished 12th in rushing yards and had the 6th best YPC of the top 15 leaders in rushing yards. But I’m sure you’ll figure out a way to credit Brady for his production too. Nah I been preaching to the Bible of Footballoutsiders since 2005. It’s the GOAT football website. Has nothing to do with 2020 Tom Brady. Yeah with all the talent they Sucked on offense without him. Now they’re elite The offense was top ten before brown. Brady had one of the best first half of seasons of his career before brown got there. Jones is a below average all around back. Good runner but a disaster in pass protection and pass catching. It should be also noted the offensive line gave up over 20 fewer sacks despite the line being the same aside from Wirfs. I’m sure that’s just a coincidence Edited January 30, 2021 by CP3MVP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archimedes Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 18 minutes ago, CP3MVP said: 36 minutes ago, Archimedes said: Nah I been preaching to the Bible of Footballoutsiders since 2005. It’s the GOAT football website. Has nothing to do with 2020 Tom Brady. There is no such thing as any one statistical site having all the answers. All of them together help paint the puzzle. 28 minutes ago, CP3MVP said: The offense was top ten before brown. Brady had one of the best first half of seasons of his career before brown got there. Lol, none of that changes the fact that the offense, AND Brady’s individual performance, improved after adding AB. Both improved by a non-insignificant degree. Brady had 3 games with a 110 passer rating before AB. He had 5 after he came. I really could go on and on. All statistical measures point towards the offense AND Brady, getting better after adding Brown. Oh by the way, your football Bible had Brady’s DVOA almost doubling from around week 9 to the end of the season. You know, after they added Brown. 30 minutes ago, CP3MVP said: Jones is a below average all around back. Good runner but a disaster in pass protection and pass catching. It should be also noted the offensive line gave up over 20 fewer sacks despite the line being the same aside from Wirfs. I’m sure that’s just a coincidence Lol, so now Jones is a “below average all around back”. You’ll pardon me if I don’t believe you. He had a fantastic season in terms of rushing production. And oh wow! The OL gave up fewer sacks with Brady behind it! So Brady does a better job of getting the rid of the ball quicker than Jameis Winston. That puts Brady in a group with about 3/4 of the starting QBs in the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Archimedes said: There is no such thing as any one statistical site having all the answers. All of them together help paint the puzzle. Lol, none of that changes the fact that the offense, AND Brady’s individual performance, improved after adding AB. Both improved by a non-insignificant degree. Brady had 3 games with a 110 passer rating before AB. He had 5 after he came. I really could go on and on. All statistical measures point towards the offense AND Brady, getting better after adding Brown. Oh by the way, your football Bible had Brady’s DVOA almost doubling from around week 9 to the end of the season. You know, after they added Brown. Lol, so now Jones is a “below average all around back”. You’ll pardon me if I don’t believe you. He had a fantastic season in terms of rushing production. And oh wow! The OL gave up fewer sacks with Brady behind it! So Brady does a better job of getting the rid of the ball quicker than Jameis Winston. That puts Brady in a group with about 3/4 of the starting QBs in the league. Yeah so I’m going with the best one. The offense was great before brown. 6th in offensive DOVA and overall number 1 team after 8 games. Remember they were horrible last season without brady(23rd). It should be noted Brady had his two worst games of the year(rams and saints 2 with brown) Yeah he’s a below average overall back because he’s terrible in pass blocking and Pass catching. It’s sad cause he’s a really good runner but he’s so bad in those two important aspects it limits him. A few? Lol try 26. Jameis was sacked 47 times in 2019 Brady was sacked 21 times in 2020. 26 is massive gap but that’s the impact elite QBs have. Edited January 31, 2021 by CP3MVP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archimedes Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 1 hour ago, CP3MVP said: Yeah so I’m going with the best one. The best one is probably ANY/A, which has the highest correlation with winning and losing for a QB stat out there. 1 hour ago, CP3MVP said: The offense was great before brown. 6th in offensive DOVA and overall number 1 team after 8 games. However good you think the offense was before they added Brown, they were still way better with him. Their final offensive numbers wouldn’t have been anywhere as good if they hadn’t added him. The overall DVOA includes defensive and special teams contributions. Neither of which Brady has anything to do with. 1 hour ago, CP3MVP said: Remember they were horrible last season without brady(23rd). It should be noted Brady had his two worst games of the year(rams and saints 2 with brown) You’re awfully quick to point out that the Bucs numbers improved after adding Brady. You understand that works both ways. Brady’s numbers were mediocre last year when he didn’t have a loaded wide receiver corps. Or do YOU think it’s a coincidence his numbers all magically improved this year? Brady had a bad game in what was literally AB’s first game with the team after having not played football for over a year. After that game, for the rest of the season as a whole, he played his best football. WITH Antonio Brown. 1 hour ago, CP3MVP said: Yeah he’s a below average overall back because he’s terrible in pass blocking and Pass catching. It’s sad cause he’s a really good runner but he’s so bad in those two important aspects it limits him. Lol, no, he’s not a below average overall back. He’s a good back. Nothing more, nothing less. 1 hour ago, CP3MVP said: A few? Lol try 26. Jameis was sacked 47 times in 2019 Brady was sacked 21 times in 2020. 26 is massive gap but that’s the impact elite QBs have. Brady taking 20+ fewer sacks than Winston doesn’t impress me. Winston sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) Jones is a still a 4.6 ypc back this year if you exclude his 98 yard TD run. 5.1 counting that run Blocking? Really? Like they will have him blocking 15 times? Hes a 72.5% pass catcher. This year was a bit of a down year (he was in the 77s the first 2 years and 66.7% this year CEH is at 66.7% as well. Jones yards per catch is at 7.7 CEH is at 8.3 and Williams is at 6.4 The truth is that Jones is an plus runner, (4.5 ypc career), a decent pass catcher, and struggles as a blocker. Edited January 31, 2021 by SkippyX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) -wrong spot Edited January 31, 2021 by SkippyX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaFellSBXLIXMVP Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) I do not pretend to get into this debate but @Archimedesare you seriously going for this pre-AB and post-AB BS? For real? Come on dude. More likely that Brady struggled early after changed teams and having to learn a completely different offense on the fly, without OTAs, without pre-season without even cops allowing him to throw to a couple of teammates in public. In reality Brady's top3 bad games all year came after AB joined the team and he lost the connection on deep balls that he had with Scott Miller. After AB started to take snaps from Scotty was when Brady went on a 1-14 with 4 picks throwing for more than 25 air yards or something along those lines. Then there was the bye week and they decided to adopt more of Brady's favorite concepts plus add a lot of motion and more play action then things started to look good for the Bucs. Still, Brown and Gronk are combining for less than 6 catches this post season. Let's not pretend they are in their primes. Far from it. Edited January 31, 2021 by LaFellSBXLIXMVP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, Archimedes said: The best one is probably ANY/A, which has the highest correlation with winning and losing for a QB stat out there. However good you think the offense was before they added Brown, they were still way better with him. Their final offensive numbers wouldn’t have been anywhere as good if they hadn’t added him. The overall DVOA includes defensive and special teams contributions. Neither of which Brady has anything to do with. You’re awfully quick to point out that the Bucs numbers improved after adding Brady. You understand that works both ways. Brady’s numbers were mediocre last year when he didn’t have a loaded wide receiver corps. Or do YOU think it’s a coincidence his numbers all magically improved this year? Brady had a bad game in what was literally AB’s first game with the team after having not played football for over a year. After that game, for the rest of the season as a whole, he played his best football. WITH Antonio Brown. Lol, no, he’s not a below average overall back. He’s a good back. Nothing more, nothing less. Brady taking 20+ fewer sacks than Winston doesn’t impress me. Winston sucks. Yeah I’m gonna go with DOVA. Yeah so the offense and Brady was great before brown. My point exactly. They sucked without Brady the previous year with all this “talent”. Yeah hes throwing the best deep balls of his career. The touchdown to Scotty miller in Vegas who in is ok, is better than anything he did in 2019. It should be noted that the patriots offense was 11th in DOVA but garbage this season with a healthier offensive line and better RBs without Brady. Good runner + terrible pass blocker and pass catcher. Below average back overall back. a 26 Sack decrease is impressive anyway you slice it. Russell Wilson is getting sacked 40 times a season Edited January 31, 2021 by CP3MVP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 7 hours ago, LaFellSBXLIXMVP said: I do not pretend to get into this debate but @Archimedesare you seriously going for this pre-AB and post-AB BS? For real? Come on dude. More likely that Brady struggled early after changed teams and having to learn a completely different offense on the fly, without OTAs, without pre-season without even cops allowing him to throw to a couple of teammates in public. In reality Brady's top3 bad games all year came after AB joined the team and he lost the connection on deep balls that he had with Scott Miller. After AB started to take snaps from Scotty was when Brady went on a 1-14 with 4 picks throwing for more than 25 air yards or something along those lines. Then there was the bye week and they decided to adopt more of Brady's favorite concepts plus add a lot of motion and more play action then things started to look good for the Bucs. Still, Brown and Gronk are combining for less than 6 catches this post season. Let's not pretend they are in their primes. Far from it. Gronk has basically been a blocker(Damn good) who is a great redzone threat. He’s basically a role player at this point. brown played 8 games and has averaged roughly 50% of the snaps in this offense. There were actually several articles throughout the season asking why brown isn’t getting more time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirill Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 Yes because their front 7 is better (Dee Ford is doo doo) and our OL is worse. I saw somebody bet like 2 mill on the Bucs they're basically just hoping somebody gets a lucky hit on Mahomes and knocks him out of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archimedes Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, LaFellSBXLIXMVP said: I do not pretend to get into this debate but @Archimedesare you seriously going for this pre-AB and post-AB BS? For real? Come on dude. More likely that Brady struggled early after changed teams and having to learn a completely different offense on the fly, without OTAs, without pre-season without even cops allowing him to throw to a couple of teammates in public. In reality Brady's top3 bad games all year came after AB joined the team and he lost the connection on deep balls that he had with Scott Miller. After AB started to take snaps from Scotty was when Brady went on a 1-14 with 4 picks throwing for more than 25 air yards or something along those lines. Then there was the bye week and they decided to adopt more of Brady's favorite concepts plus add a lot of motion and more play action then things started to look good for the Bucs. Still, Brown and Gronk are combining for less than 6 catches this post season. Let's not pretend they are in their primes. Far from it. No, Brady and Gronk aren’t in their primes. They’re far from it. But then, Brady is far from his prime as well. Edited January 31, 2021 by Archimedes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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