Not sure how I feel...

[MOSteelers56]

2 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

X's and O's, offensive line/Run game, wide receiver drop issues, Ben.

I mean wasn't Fitchner Ben's guy? In turn, doesn't that make it Ben's offense? The offense was catered directly to Ben. Ben's never been a run the ball guy. The drop issue is definitely a problem, but also we threw the ball 3 times a game more than anyone else. We led the league in pass attempts by a wide margin. If 5 of those passes a game are runs, we logically have considerably fewer drops.  So 3 of the 4(and kind of 4 out of 4) of those reasons are tied to Ben. Again, I don't think Ben is garbage. I think we could make the playoffs with him, but Ben was a big issue last year. I generally agree with @3rivers on that point. Ben's declined the last 3 years. I'm hopeful that this year we take some of the power over the offense that Ben has and give it to Canada. Ben needs to throw the ball 25-30 times a game. 

[Dcash4]

2 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said:

I mean wasn't Fitchner Ben's guy? In turn, doesn't that make it Ben's offense?

Absolutely. IMO it was a huge 3 year mistake that wasted time. They should have seen it in year 1, definitely should have known in year 2, and didn't pull the plug fast enough in year 3.

Don't put Ben in charge of the mental game as he is and always has been a reactionary player. I think that's a big reason we saw lack of audibles, two plays in huddle, changes, hots, etc. He/Fichtner thought they had it with their brains....they were wrong. That (hopefully) is alleviated with Canada. 

6 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said:

The drop issue is definitely a problem, but also we threw the ball 3 times a game more than anyone else

I get where you going with this, but I don't really agree it was a numbers problem that gets alleviated by having less numbers. JuJu dropping a huge 3rd and 13 against WFT isn't a "its cool, you had 5 chances, you will get the next one - its just math!". Same with a drop like DJ's 2 against the Bills. One was on a stay/screen and the other was on a short drag. We are not talking about tough grabs that just didn't roll our way, we are talking complete lack of concentration from NFL players. We should be able to run screen/stays at a 100% clip and shallow drags without defenders to the QB's open arm are about as pitch and catch as can be. 

Ben has never been and will never be Drew Brees - Super accurate, get into the right offense, have the right read, deliver the football on time in spots. Trying to turn him into that at age 38 was dumb. I would fully put the mental issues on Fichtner and Ben. But I don't agree that Ben was as big a physical issue as is being made out. There is for sure an issue with the deep ball, but you can roll PART of that up into how bad the offense was at setting a rhythm and a plan. Ben isn't going to put a tear drop into a bucket on a hitch, that's not who he is. Deep drops, longer developing crossers, and scramble drill has always been his money point going deep. You can still see that with games like the Colts where he hits both DJ and JuJu perfectly in stride in both situations. 

Give me game manager Ben for 3 Quarters with 2 and 4 minute Ben available and I think you can have a really nice offense. Ben was second in the league in 4th Q comebacks and 3rd in game winning drives. That's the stuff I want him for. Manage the offense better and keep that killer guy for when you need it. 

 

[Dcash4]

I don't want to come off like Ben is absolved all of issues -- he absolutely is not. He is a part of the problems, but I think his issues are being exaggerated and can almost completely be changed with better offensive minds at the helm. It keeps getting thrown around that he sucks in the pocket, which going back and watching games he most certainly does not. He isn't god anymore, but still impressive and leaps and bounds better than someone like Mason. 

Tom Brady completed less than 60% of his passes and had 4 turnovers in his playoff run to the super bowl, despite all that talent around him. He has actually completed 60% of less in 5 of his last 6 playoff appearances. But he can still be a killer when they need him if their offense is competent and their play makers make plays. Im not saying Ben can be Brady, but that's the style of game I envision in 2021. Have a competent offensive plan, play good defense, and let Ben be Ben in crunch situations. 

[jebrick]

There is a big difference on designing plays ( Fitchner did well.) and play calling( Fitchner was horrible at best).  We shall see on Canada.

[Steeler Hitman]

54 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said:

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He threw the ball almost 70 times that game, and he lost the game with his terrible play.

Why did h throw the ball 68 times that game and as many times as he did the majority of others? The team did not have offensive balance for the majority of the year. He was also coming off major arm surgery. To make him have to throw every week to win caught up with the Steelers. We saw it against the Ravens JV Team, "We figured the Steelers offense out!" A quote said by many at years end. We couldn't get a push in the OL. We had an inconsistent rushing attack. Play calling was horrible. Game adjustments became virtually non existent. The Steelers put the offense on the back and arm of their aging QB coming off elbow surgery. I am not saying that Ben did not have his own issues as well. He didn't get the support he needed. insert Brees, Rogers, or GOAT Brady and you will have some of the same issues without a team effort and some balance. 

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500 yards doesn't mean too much to me.

End of the day it is a loss. Lots of yards and points don't mean anything if the opponent has one more point than you. My point is that you can't flippantly ignore throwing for 500 yards on one hand and say that he can't throw on the other hand. A lot of great QB's have never have done that even once and Ben has done it many times including one of his worst games. 

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I thought Mason looked better against the Browns the last week of the year than Ben did in the playoff game.

I don't necessarily disagree with that. Can Mason play like that consistently? I am not so sure. I don't think that Mason is ready to lead this team and do that consistently week in and week out. Not Mason's fault, but let's not pretend he is Ben or on his level yet. He's not! Mason and Duck were also let down by lack of a rushing attack the previous year. We thought it was simply because teams stacked the box. But it was also because our offense was not built to play smash-mouth and defense.

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I don't think our offensive woes were solely on Ben's shoulders, but to act like he wasn't a major reason why we stunk is disingenuous.

I did not disagree with you or 3Rivers that Ben had some issues.  I will say that Ben hit a wall. I explained why I thought he did. We disagree on the MAJOR part. He had no help in the running game. The OL play let him down. The OC did not do more to help utilize what Ben could do effectively. There were some weeks when Ben put the team on his shoulders and lead them. There were others where he needed some others to step up. As bad as the Steelers offense looked the dropped passes against the Ravens JV team and the WFT were horrible. Ben's pick six against the bills turned that game around. His int's against the Browns in the play-off's doomed and helped put the team down 28-0. 

I am saying support Ben like Tom, Elway and Peyton got supported late in their careers and still won SB's. Tom, John, and Peyton got credit, but it was the hurt Chiefs OL, the Bucs defense and rushing attack, Terrell Davis and the Bronco defense and Von Miller and the Bronco's defense that did it for Peyton. Give Ben an effective OL, let Najee run and catch, and a healthy Steelers defense and I sincerely he can do the same.

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He had good stats, but he threw the ball a ridiculous amount. Add in that the vast majority of those throws were at the LOS doesn't bode well for your argument. 

The expectation of Big Ben to be Big Ben of 2008 or even 2016 or 2017 is not a fair or realistic expectation. Ben cannot do what he did physically in leading this team throwing for 5000 yards. We saw what that got the team. I still think those pandemic switch ups, no real bye and the three games in 12 days caught up to Ben and the team. I think it affected the elder statesman Ben more. 

 

 

34 minutes ago, Dcash4 said:

 

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Ben was part of the problem, but to me he was about 4th on the list.

That is what I am saying. He is not blameless, but he isn't the root cause either. With many the argument seems that it can only be one side or the other and not the other factors as well. 

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X's and O's, offensive line/Run game, wide receiver drop issues, Ben. That's the order I would put it in. Any of the first three help him be far less of a problem - two of which I believe we are already well on our way to fixing/having fixed. 

Agreed. I would add the no bye week and game switches. No one will use this as an excuse, but it definitely had an effect and not coincidently the offense began to go downhill after the Titan game and then really dipped after the Ravens JV scheduling debacle. 

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 I don't blame Ben physically for throwing short.

I think that was by design more than he just can't throw. I do expect the arm to actually be stronger this year because he is now more than a year post surgery. I also remember the big shot to the legs he took versus the Cowboys. I think they definitely wanted to protect Ben from hits and sacks as being sacked only 13 times showed. 

 

25 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said:

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I mean wasn't Fitchner Ben's guy? In turn, doesn't that make it Ben's offense? The offense was catered directly to Ben. Ben's never been a run the ball guy.

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I have been saying from the start that was flawed thinking/planning. This is 37-38 year old Ben not 27 or 28 year old Ben. Ben has taken a beating his entire career. Why expect the 37 year old version to be what the 27 year version is? While I believe he can still play at a high level, I also believe he is most effective with help. Balance, rushing attack and an opportunistic tough defense. The Steelers would be tough to beat with a smart veteran QB like Ben.

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The drop issue is definitely a problem, but also we threw the ball 3 times a game more than anyone else.

Why? because we could not run the ball or establish any sort of consistent offensive balance. Sooooo, we put the offense on the back of our 37 year old QB returning from elbow surgery to lead the team. And for a while he did. Then teams caught up and the Steelers had no answers. 

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We led the league in pass attempts by a wide margin. If 5 of those passes a game are runs, we logically have considerably fewer drops.  

And are in second or third and a mile anyway. They didn't run because they couldn't. Even when they tried either the RB got blown up or when the OL did open a hole the RB misread it or lacked the timing and discipline to make the effort successful. 

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I generally agree with @3rivers on that point. Ben's declined the last 3 years. I'm hopeful that this year we take some of the power over the offense that Ben has and give it to Canada. Ben needs to throw the ball 25-30 times a game. 

I am not disagreeing with @3rivers or anyone else that Ben's play/game has somewhat declined. Father time is undefeated, but he can be outsmarted for a while too!☺️The formula for success has been explained and broken repeatedly. It is not very difficult to understand or execute with the right players. AB, Haley, and others have said Big Ben has too much power. Franchise SB winning QB's do ask Brady and Rogers. BA was let go to bring in someone to help Ben and prolong his career. Hopefully OC Canada can do the same. He's got young legs to carry the offense (Najee, Claypool, Ju Ju, Dionte', Washington, Ebron, Jet Sweep Ray Ray🤪, and now Baby Gronk. Put the ball in their hands and compliment a solid defense. They can win.

My argument is that there is not another QB on the roster or they could have drafted that I believe would have helped them win now. Mason may well be ready in 2022. Let him sit and learn. It is an old concept that many today don't seem to believe in, but it has proven to work in the past. Ben is the man for 2021. Let's get him the tools and support to help him be successful. We can't depend on Ben stepping up and being Ben of 2008 for 16 weeks again and shouldn't. 

 

[Dcash4]

2 hours ago, jebrick said:

on designing plays ( Fitchner did well.)

I pretty much 100% disagree here. Way to simplistic and un-creative for todays NFL game. I think you would be hard pressed to find a coach, even at the college level, that has as many one route pass sets than he has - especially as what seemed like set out of huddle plays and not checks at the line/duel calls. Didn't really understand route combos. Had a poor understanding of what defenses were trying to do against him or how to exploit mismatches in pre-game prep. Telegraphed plays via personnel and situation. 

I really don't know what positive qualities Randy had. It makes my blood boil at times that Tomlin didn't cut him after calling two Fake WR Screen Slip Seams on 3rd and 9 and then in the 4th quarter down a TD last year. At least I hope he got a "are you really that dumb?" through the headset. 

[Steeler Hitman]

23 hours ago, jebrick said:

There is a big difference on designing plays ( Fitchner did well.) and play calling( Fitchner was horrible at best).  We shall see on Canada.

One of the problems with success and consistency is that you don't always know when to change things up. We think, "this worked before, so it will work again." A great line from Remember the Titans when coach Boone was explaining his somewhat outdated offensive scheme. He said that he won some championships with it and then later said, "It's like nonvaccine. Just give it time to work." 

I never doubted his football acumen or  knowledge. To your point, I felt (my opinion) he got too comfortable with some things and when teams caught up he did not adjust or change what he had done because it worked before. If you recall, Chuck Noll got the same criticism for not changing and advancing the plays, formations and schemes. I remember former TE Eric Green asking the OT who was supposed to block on a running play. Former Brown great Clay Mathews Sr. told him, "It's me, but you ain't gonna make the block!"  That was the 2020 Steelers offense after the Ravens JV game. 

20 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

I pretty much 100% disagree here. Way to simplistic and un-creative for todays NFL game. I think you would be hard pressed to find a coach, even at the college level, that has as many one route pass sets than he has - especially as what seemed like set out of huddle plays and not checks at the line/duel calls. Didn't really understand route combos. Had a poor understanding of what defenses were trying to do against him or how to exploit mismatches in pre-game prep. Telegraphed plays via personnel and situation. 

Great points, but I don't think it was because he didn't know any better or know how to change, but rather perhaps, he felt like it would eventually start working again. Do you remember some of the comments that OC Fitchner made about a lack of execution of what was called? There were plays that the OL did a poor job blocking, timing got disrupted or the RB didn't follow blocks or have the vision or awareness to slow down and wait for the block to develop. 

There was a play against the Bengals in the second game, where the Steelers ran a screen to Ray Ray McCloud. If I recall Big Al was a split second off getting out there to block and then Ray Ray slipped and the defender basically fell into him after being blocked.  That was a big part of the Steelers problems as well. That is the difference between success and failure in the NFL.

I really don't know what positive qualities Randy had. It makes my blood boil at times that Tomlin didn't cut him after calling two Fake WR Screen Slip Seams on 3rd and 9 and then in the 4th quarter down a TD last year. At least I hope he got a "are you really that dumb?" through the headset. 

I don't think it is an intelligence thing, but rather an "insanity thing!" Doing the same thing and justifying it and still expecting a different result. I was this with Coach Haley. Remember how he couldn't get in the endzone in the red zone. coach Fitchner took over and if I recall the Steelers became #1 or near the top in redzone scoring and efficiency. Those days are gone. 

[Dcash4]

25 minutes ago, Steeler Hitman said:

I don't think it is an intelligence thing, but rather an "insanity thing!"

I think the second defines the first. I get what you are saying about the execution, but at some point you need to be smart enough to say "what I am doing isn't working, what I am seeing isnt right, or our players just cannot do it". 

Your intelligence should tell you it's time to pivot. When you ONLY run power to the outside and teams notice and just sprint to cut off the edge....you need to notice that and either stop or counter it. We didn't. I just really don't think the football intelligence was there to counter anything. 

25 minutes ago, Steeler Hitman said:

Coach Haley. Remember how he couldn't get in the endzone in the red zone. coach Fitchner took over and if I recall the Steelers became #1 or near the top in redzone scoring and efficiency.

Fichtner did have influence here, but I would argue Munchak and Antonio Brown were the bigger difference makers. We had 16 rushing TD's that year against 21 combined the last two. AB had 15 TD's himself. 

The AB goal line thing makes me angry too when it comes to Fichtner. Remember the really simple concept of the sprint motion for AB in goal line for easy pitch and catch TD/2Pt Conversions in the flat? Easy concept, something Fichtner himself called -- gone. Never to be seen again. I understand Ab and the attention he brought isn't here. But you cant tell me you don't watch teams tape enough to understand when a team goes man in goal line situations to draw something up like that again for DJ. Those are the thing that make me rag on his intelligence. Same with the check screens Ben used to like throwing so often to AB. They are just removed from the offense. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Dcash4

[Steeler Hitman]

1 minute ago, Dcash4 said:

I

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think the second defines the first. I get what you are saying about the execution, but at some point you need to be smart enough to say "what I am doing isn't working, what I am seeing isn't right, or our plays just cannot do it". 

I think that you are far more logical and intelligent than prideful. Pride, ego and past success sometimes consumes thoughts. Success sometimes blocks the logical. We see this all the time in many aspects of sports and life. 

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Your intelligence should tell you it's time to pivot.

I think that intelligence does say that. Pride, determination, and ego say it's not the play, but the players executing it or something else.

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When you ONLY run power to the outside and teams notice and just sprint to cut off the edge....you need to notice that and either stop or counter it. We didn't. I just really don't think the football intelligence was there to counter anything. 

For as aware as we may think we are, these guys truly know this.  We are not the only ones seeing it. They dissect film frame by frame, chart tendencies, have a variety of stats and data at their disposal, so yes they know. This is football, not physics or brain surgery. I saw the same thing with Todd Haley (whom I really like as a radio show host on Sirius XM ).

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Fichtner did have influence here, but I would argue Munchak and Antonio Brown were the bigger difference makers.

Absolutely from a results standpoint. They helped the success of their prospective positions.  Coach Muchak helped coach the lineman from a former HOF player's perspective. I am hopeful that Coach Klemm can do the same from being an accomplished pro and SB OL.  Being a great player doesn't equal being a great coach, but Coach Munchak was both. A huge loss to the OL and I think Coach T as well by having another former HC in the locker room. 

AB was the WR version of the old Jim Brown joke, "Just give me the damn ball!" The guy was a tremendous talent for this team and a dependable and consistent weapon for Big Ben. losing AB and Bell hurt this offense period. You simply can't replace all pro talent consistently with decent, solid or even good players week in and week out.  

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We had 16 rushing TD's that year against 21 combined the last two. AB had 15 TD's himself. 

I didn't mind AB getting the ball there at times. The play-off game against the Chiefs infuriated me. Bell was running wild and could have probably gained 300 yards rushing. At the goal line, Ben calls a pass to AB that gets tipped and intercepted. They score there, the game is done at 24-0 and there was no Mahomes then. This was the old Alex Smith offense. If you recall, Haley chewed Ben out for it too.

The AB goal line thing makes me angry too when it comes to Fichtner. Remember the really simple concept of the sprint motion for AB in goal line for easy pitch and catch TD/2Pt Conversions in the flat? Easy concept, something Fichtner himself called -- gone. Never to be seen again. I understand Ab and the attention he brought isn't here. But you cant tell me you don't watch teams tape enough to understand when a team goes man in goal line situations to draw something up like that again for DJ. Those are the thing that

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make me rag on his intelligence

Dionte has been inconsistent from the break. I think he is an emerging talent and is working hard, but simply is not on AB's level yet and may never be.  That statement is no slight to Dionte. AB is a HOF level WR who had very good hands and knew how to get open and catch the ball. I believe if AB does not implode and stays a Steeler, he would finish his career as the second greatest WR of all time behind only the GOAT Jerry Rice. Another story or thread for another day.  AB is that good and also that egotistical as he hurt his legacy by some of his actions. That said, you still can't argue his elite talent. I am glad AB got a ring, but say what you want, it isn't the same if he would have earned one here. We still don't know what could or might have been if Bell, Brown and Ben had stayed together and all been healthy at the same time. 

. Same with the check screens Ben used to like throwing so often to AB. They are just removed from the offense. 

I do think that the team tried to do some of these things with Dionte and Ray Ray early on. The consistency and timing where just not there. That string where the drops started adding up hurt the offenses cohesion as well.

[CKSteeler]

On 5/11/2021 at 11:03 AM, MOSteelers56 said:

I mean wasn't Fitchner Ben's guy?

People keep saying this, but Fitchner was Tomlin's first hire when he became the Steelers head coach. The two were very close. Ben also had a positive relationship with him, but people pretend as if that's the only reason he was promoted. Which in itself would be a poor reflection on the head coach. But the reality is that Tomlin likes to promote from within and had a close relationship with the guy.

[warfelg]

On 5/11/2021 at 11:03 AM, MOSteelers56 said:

I mean wasn't Fitchner Ben's guy?

Definitely feels that way.  Remember when Haley was near the end of his run, they actually installed Fitchner as the guy relaying the calls from Haley up in the booth to Ben on the field and the story was it's because Ben trusted Fitchner more.  

[jebrick]

Fitchner was a good caddie and that is about it.  I worry that Ben will resist doing Canada's offense because he does not want to move.

[Steeler Hitman]

1 hour ago, jebrick said:

Fitchner was a good caddie and that is about it.  I worry that Ben will resist doing Canada's offense because he does not want to move.

I hear a lot of people suggesting this. I don't necessarily agree with it. It is not like Ben has lost all athleticism and simply cannot move anymore. He can't hand-off, he can't scramble, he can do anything except take one, three, or five steps and throw (heaven forbid we ask him to do a seven step drop).  He preferred to be in the shotgun to see read and pass, no doubt. The word was preferred, not can't. 

I think he may have gotten a little shook from the hit in Dallas (injuring him and missing the year) and not from a fear of just being hit (he has been one of the most hit QB's of all time).  I think that if he was afraid it would be of getting injured. His mobility was not the same after the Dallas game and I think the team and Ben adjusted to that knee pain and certainly did not want a repeat of 2019 with him missing the rest of the year. 

[jebrick]

 

Canada wants misdirection and a QB needs to REACH to even do a PA.  I worry that Ben will not buy into it and it will have to be less of what the play could be,

[Dcash4]

11 hours ago, CKSteeler said:

People keep saying this, but Fitchner was Tomlin's first hire when he became the Steelers head coach. The two were very close. Ben also had a positive relationship with him, but people pretend as if that's the only reason he was promoted. Which in itself would be a poor reflection on the head coach. But the reality is that Tomlin likes to promote from within and had a close relationship with the guy.

Both things can be true, and most likely were.