Ozzy Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 5 hours ago, The BILLievers said: Calling Landry or OBJ an elite WR is laughable. Even more laughable is saying Peoples-Jones is on the cusp of becoming an elite WR; who has 14 career catches. I know you're a Browns fan but come on man. Browns fan....nah sorry broham, I am about the farthest thing from a Browns fan as anyone around here. Sure I like and follow talented teams at times, but it is more about following talented players and the Browns have a lot of them. OBJ and Landry and both outstanding pro receivers and if they stay healthy this year they will be awesome. As if one even needs "elite" receivers to win a Super bowl, go ask the Patriots about that one. The Browns have a very deep receiver room but again most around here disregard that concept of depth and only look at the top 1 or 2 guys at the position not taking into account the 2nd and 3rd string guys as if they are not part of a roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 9 hours ago, MSURacerDT55 said: A few things: 1. You don't think they are elite? Cool, they will still torch your *** when healthy, plus go back to the Dallas game and tell me Obj didn't damn near win the game by himself. Also Jarvis doesn't have to be elite to appease you, he as been great for us receiving, blocking (which I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't the top blocking WR in the league) and even passing in addition to changing the culture in the locker room 2. Of course we don't have a top 10 defense, that's why we spent all offseason acquiring top notch defensive talent to get as close to elite as possible. Much like after the 2019 season, the Browns had the 23rd ranked OL, Andrew Berry addressed the OL (Bringing in Bill Callahan as OL coach, Drafting Jedrick Wills, acquiring Jack Conklin) and went to #1, I'm not saying we will be #1 but I have zero doubt we will vastly improved in that area. 1.)Lots of non elite receivers can torch people when healthy. The corpse of Julian Edelman embarrassed the Seahawks last year. I’m not saying they’re scrubs they’re just not elite. 2.)The browns defense can be greatly improved and not top ten. To me it’s hard to say a team that doesn’t have a top ten defense has a top 2 overall roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The BILLievers Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 2 hours ago, Ozzy said: Browns fan....nah sorry broham, I am about the farthest thing from a Browns fan as anyone around here. Sure I like and follow talented teams at times, but it is more about following talented players and the Browns have a lot of them. OBJ and Landry and both outstanding pro receivers and if they stay healthy this year they will be awesome. As if one even needs "elite" receivers to win a Super bowl, go ask the Patriots about that one. The Browns have a very deep receiver room but again most around here disregard that concept of depth and only look at the top 1 or 2 guys at the position not taking into account the 2nd and 3rd string guys as if they are not part of a roster. We're not talking about if you need elite WR's to win super bowls I was simply pointing out OBJ and Landry are not elite WRs; not close. Yes they are good professional level WRs but if we can throw out elite that loosely than almost the entire NFL is elite. I agree they are a collective good unit and aren't going to lose you games though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 12 minutes ago, The BILLievers said: We're not talking about if you need elite WR's to win super bowls I was simply pointing out OBJ and Landry are not elite WRs; not close. Yes they are good professional level WRs but if we can throw out elite that loosely than almost the entire NFL is elite. I agree they are a collective good unit and aren't going to lose you games though. I just find it nuts that two receivers who have been in a combined 9 Pro bowls, twice on the All Pro 2nd team, and have 13800 yards receiving and 86 TDs in a combined 14 years is bad WR play. Again elite to me is top 25 wide receiver out of what over 190 NFL receivers, if these two guys are not top 25 then what the hell. OBJ in out of 18 games total for the Browns last year played what 7, yeah I sure hope he sucks when he misses over half the season due to injury. Sure they have both been banged up a bit but if they get healthy they are a hell of a duo and are top flight receivers. But yeah again I call elite is well beyond top 1, 2 or 3 in the league. If that is true then Russell Wilson is not an elite QB because he is not a top 3 QB in the league? Yeah right. 1 hour ago, CP3MVP said: 1.)Lots of non elite receivers can torch people when healthy. The corpse of Julian Edelman embarrassed the Seahawks last year. I’m not saying they’re scrubs they’re just not elite. 2.)The browns defense can be greatly improved and not top ten. To me it’s hard to say a team that doesn’t have a top ten defense has a top 2 overall roster. A lot of it is based on projection sure but this is preseason all one can do is project. Kansas City did not have a top 10 defense last year and they are absolutely right up there with any roster in the NFL this up coming season and arguably lost some talent on defense from last years team in Breeland, Wilson, Kpassagnon and Pennel. Did add Reed and they hope the young guys will step up on the DL sure. Bills are another team, they are not a top 10 defense but they are right up there with any roster and are top 4 or 5 easily no question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBLIII Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 On 8/30/2021 at 11:07 PM, CP3MVP said: Top 2? They don’t have an elite WR, TE and their defense is questionable. I just looked at their roster player by player. You are absolutely right. That defense will not be very good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 1 hour ago, SBLIII said: I just looked at their roster player by player. You are absolutely right. That defense will not be very good. Not very good? Ummm and what would be good the Patriots? Here are the two rosters, Myles Garrett is obviously better than Wise and it is not even a discussion. On the inside give me Billings, Jackson, Elliott, Togiai and McDowell over Guy, Barmore, Godchaux, Carl Davis and Cowart. Maybe that could change if Barmore is some amazing player but will wait and see on that. Sure that depends on Elliott, Togiai or McDowell producing and I think they will. Then on the other end obviously Clowney is greatly superior to Anderson or Winovich, granted Browns need to bring in another DE for some depth and sure they might find one but if Clowney stays healthy it is not even a question who has the better DL. Then you have LB, clearly the Patriots have better linebackers across the board so that is not a question. But in terms of versatility and athletic ability Owusu-Koramoah could be an outstanding pro. But yeah they cannot compete with Judon, Van Noy, Hightower, Perkins, Uche, Bentley at LB, Patriots have depth and talent there. Still Wilson, Takitaki, Walker and Phillips are not as awful as some make them out to be at LB. Then you got the secondary, JC Jackson and Denzel Ward might be a wash but slight edge to Jackson. Then Troy Hill and Mills is kind of a wash, both are good players, Mills better tackler Hill better in coverage. At safety John Johnson or McCourty, I think Johnson is up and coming and I would take him over McCourty. Then Phillips/Dugger or Harrison/Delpit/LeCounte/ Probably go with Phillips/Dugger, the depth at CB is hard to call since Delpit or LeCounte could really be fine players down the road. If Gilmore was healthy it would be a different story totally but Browns have promising players in Greedy Williams and Newsome who could be a solid pro not to mention AJ Green and Stewart. Patriots have good depth at CB with Jones, Williams and Wade. Still slight nod to the Patriots D but it is not this landslide, sure could be different if Gilmore could play all year, but taking into account the defense is the strength of the team and the Browns have better RBs, WRs, OL, TEs and QBs than the Patriots but what totally pretend that is not a thing? Patriots have some great RBs but no where near the depth the Browns have or elite talent level. The Browns D will not be bad and should easily be top 15 if not top 10 defensively. Last year they played what BJ Goodson who was an issue in coverage, Karl Joseph who is also pretty bad in coverage, Sendejo who I am not sure he is in the league anymore along with Goodson and Joseph, Terrance Mitchell at CB who is not very good at all. Olivier Vernon who was up there in age and also out of the NFL right now, not to mention Kevin Johnson at CB who is also out of the NFL right now. Adrian Clayborn is another so out of all those guys who played last year, one is currently on an NFL roster, so 6 out of 7 are out of the league currently and they all played a good amount last year. As if they did not improve, yeah right. But no pretend they are some terrible unit with terrible talent on it based off what they did last year despite not having tons of players from that roster anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBLIII Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 @Ozzy why are you comparing the Patriots with the Browns? Never said the Patriots have a better roster and it doesn't really matter. I see holes at DT and LB for the Browns and I see issues coming for the defense. I think the Browns still win 11 games and contend for the AFC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 24 minutes ago, SBLIII said: @Ozzy why are you comparing the Patriots with the Browns? Never said the Patriots have a better roster and it doesn't really matter. I see holes at DT and LB for the Browns and I see issues coming for the defense. I think the Browns still win 11 games and contend for the AFC. Chiefs have holes at LB and backup DE and maybe even starting DE if Jones does not take to the position. Steelers have potential issues on the OL and possibly at CB. Sure the Browns is not absolutely solid across the board but I am looking at it in terms of depth not just starters. If one looks at specifically the starters, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers are arguably the most complete roster in football. No position to me is an issue at all, maybe OG but even that is a little bit of a stretch. Starters across the board are all very solid players, depth on the OL and DL could be an issue also with the depth at safety after the top three but pure starters they are probably better than any roster. The Bills on D if Rosseau, Epenesa and Basham provide that much needed depth and pass rush they could be amazing if the secondary can stay healthy because outside of the starters at DB their depth is not that great. So again with the Browns sure some guys have to lock down starting spots but the depth they have and options a lot at almost every position. If one guy does not work out another one or two could and not many rosters have that. Pretty sure Hubbard could start on some other teams in the NFL, same with LeCounte or Delpit if put on a needy team at the safety spot, same with Greedy Williams or Hunt obviously could start elsewhere or Harrison Bryant. Sure guys could get hurt but Garrett and Clowney, no team in the NFL have two more talented DL on their roster. Washington has the best DL easy with Young, Sweat, Allen and Payne collectively but not sure Young is better than Garrett, maybe could be long term and not sure Sweat, Allen or Payne is better than Clowney at his best but sure Clowney might not be at his best and might get hurt which he usually does. Granted the Bears, Steelers and Bucs probably have the best front 7 guys regardless of 3/4 or 4/3. DE Tuitt NT Alualu DE Heyward OLB Watt ILB Bush ILB Schobert OLB Highsmith DE Hicks NT Goldman DE Edwards OLB Mack ILB R. Smith ILB D. Trevathan OLB R. Quinn DE Suh NT Vea DE Gholston OLB Pierre-Paul ILB White ILB David OLB Barrett Steelers probably have the edge because they have Ingram also but Bears also have Ogletree but Quinn is aging and is not as productive as Highsmith potentially. Then there is the Bucs who have Tryon, Nelson and Britt as backup LBs so that is pretty damn solid. Still Garrett and Clowney again cannot find any other team with two super star dudes on the DL like that, but sure maybe it will not work out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nzd07 Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 Jarvis Landry continues to be one of the most overrated players in the NFL, even in 2021. Dang. OBJ has done nothing since being traded. Browns receiving core is below average until further notice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakuvious Posted September 2, 2021 Share Posted September 2, 2021 7 hours ago, Ozzy said: Chiefs have holes at LB and backup DE and maybe even starting DE if Jones does not take to the position. 7 guys regardless of 3/4 or 4/3. By your logic rating the Browns LBs, the Chiefs have proven vets at LB in Anthony Hitchens and Ben Nieman, and potential superstars in Nick Bolton and Willie Gay. The problem here, is you apply eternally optimistic logic to all things Browns. Every vet, even if historically subpar, is a proven vet. Every rookie or unproven guy has high potential or might be a superstar or good player down the road. But you don't apply those same optimistic standards to other teams around the league. Owusu-Koramoah is a potential star as an unproven 2nd round pick, when you talk about the Browns LB corp, but you don't apply that same logic to Nick Bolton and Willie Gay, as unproven first and second round picks. The Chiefs have a hole at LB, the Browns have talent. Do you not see the inconsistency there? Also, the Chiefs were, by definition, a top 10 defense last year. 10th in scoring D. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted September 2, 2021 Share Posted September 2, 2021 (edited) On 8/31/2021 at 8:10 PM, Ozzy said: I just find it nuts that two receivers who have been in a combined 9 Pro bowls, twice on the All Pro 2nd team, and have 13800 yards receiving and 86 TDs in a combined 14 years is bad WR play. Who has said they’re bad? Quote Again elite to me is top 25 wide receiver out of what over 190 NFL receivers I’ve seen dozens and dozens of debates over who’s an elite player, what elite means, which benchmark marks the elite status… You're the first to ever say top-25. Yikes. Most would say top 5ish. Even then…can easily argue Landry out of that group. Edited September 2, 2021 by Yin-Yang 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted September 2, 2021 Share Posted September 2, 2021 45 minutes ago, Jakuvious said: By your logic rating the Browns LBs, the Chiefs have proven vets at LB in Anthony Hitchens and Ben Nieman, and potential superstars in Nick Bolton and Willie Gay. The problem here, is you apply eternally optimistic logic to all things Browns. Every vet, even if historically subpar, is a proven vet. Every rookie or unproven guy has high potential or might be a superstar or good player down the road. But you don't apply those same optimistic standards to other teams around the league. Owusu-Koramoah is a potential star as an unproven 2nd round pick, when you talk about the Browns LB corp, but you don't apply that same logic to Nick Bolton and Willie Gay, as unproven first and second round picks. The Chiefs have a hole at LB, the Browns have talent. Do you not see the inconsistency there? Also, the Chiefs were, by definition, a top 10 defense last year. 10th in scoring D. Chiefs were 16th in yards given up per game and 11th in points given up per game regular season. At least that is what it says on regular season stats defensively on ESPN.com. But sure I guess tied for 10th with the Colts... Granted I think Owusu-Koramoah has way more potential than Willie Gay who is a good athlete but was suspect at best on Miss State and Nick Bolton who I found to be a bit on the overrated side but sure made a ton of tackles. There has been a line of Missouri linebackers who have made a ton of tackles as well over the past few years and not been anything great in the NFL. But sure you can say I am overrating their young guys but honestly a lot of the guys on the Browns I liked when they come out of college. I had John Johnson a 1st round pick very early when few even knew his name. I had LeCounte a 1st round pick before the 40 issue and even after still had him a 2nd rounded and has looked good this preseason. Those are guys I like, McDowell I had as a 1st round talent out of Michigan State and impressive he made the roster after missing so much time. I was a big Takitaki fan when he was on BYU. I was a big Wills fan on Bama, Conklin fan on Michigan State, Wyatt Teller fan on VT, Baker Mayfield as a RS JR I had as a top 10 potential draft pick. Sure Baker does not have super high potential as a NFL player, never will be a top 5 QB or something but still has been decent. Oh and I loved Austin Hooper out of Stanford, really like Harrison Bryant as well, Peoples-Jones loved his versatility, Clowney I had as a #1 overall pick when it was early in his SOPH year, AJ Green at corner I think has tons of athletic potential etc. Either way I just like a ton of the prospects on the Browns roster, maybe I overrate them but still a lot of the guys on the team I liked coming out a good deal. Also I spoke of the Chiefs LB spot because yeah they have issues with their roster yet are still an overall great roster in the NFL and one of the best. Few if any are solid across all positions outside of the Bucs like I mentioned. But even then they do not have the depth some other teams have but ultimately for them hopefully it never gets to that point. Thankfully for them they have no health issues on the OL, where the Steelers that OL could be a problem unless they can address it and get someone in there quick to fill the void. And yes I do apply the same "optimistic standard" to other teams across the league to players I do and did like as young prospects. Others I do not really care for thus I do not consider it as much of a value. Sure if someone thinks Delpit and LeCounte sucks then Browns having those two just sitting back there waiting and developing who cares. Fact is I liked both a lot coming out of college and they could either one develop into a starter for awhile in the league. Not many teams have two guys like that just sitting on the bench at safety. And like I said that Browns D is greatly improved and multiple guys on the D last year are not even in the NFL right now, if that does not say anything to their improvement what does? Oh and the number of guys is 6 out of the league that played a decent amount if not started on the Browns D last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted September 2, 2021 Share Posted September 2, 2021 50 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: Who has said they’re bad? I’ve seen dozens and dozens of debates over who’s an elite player, what elite means, which benchmark marks the elite status… You're the first to ever say top-25. Yikes. Most would say top 5ish. Even then…can easily argue Landry that group. Semantics much? So 8 players made the Pro bowl at WR last year, what 3 of them suck and only 5 of them are elite? Then 8 receivers made the 1st or 2nd team All Pro teams because there was a tie on the 2nd team which also had no TE, so what 3 of them suck and are not elite or worth being an All Pro guys because they are not top 5? I guess no one knows what the worth depth means. KhaDarel Hodge was cut by the Browns and picked up by the Broncos, and if they cut Davion Davis which they did not he would have been picked up as well. They have star power when OBJ and Landry are both healthy and they have depth if those two cannot perform. Take Tyreek Hill off the Chiefs and they would have a lot more problems filling that production than if OBJ was off the Browns because that literally happened last year and they still beat a good Pittsburgh team and almost beat KC in the Playoffs with a bad defense! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buno67 Posted September 2, 2021 Share Posted September 2, 2021 3 hours ago, Nzd07 said: Browns receiving core is below average until further notice. I would say about avg. I would rank their WR Corps some where between 14-17th in the league at the moment. They could easily crack top 10 in OBJ comes back strong, DPJ keeps showing the development he has made from yr1 to yr2 and if Schwartz can show why he is arguably one of the fast guys in the entire league 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp6488 Posted September 2, 2021 Share Posted September 2, 2021 (edited) On 8/24/2021 at 10:34 PM, Ozzy said: With how the preseason has gone, I think it is pretty clear that the Cleveland Browns have the deepest roster in the NFL. They go two deep or more at basically every single position and it is not even a question, even go two deep at FB with Stanton who is surprisingly good and Janovich. Even cut Alex Taylor who is an extremely talented tackle prospect just because they already have four solid tackles on the team. Sure on paper a team like the Chiefs or Bucs have a major advantage having Mahomes and Brady at QB but top to bottom Browns are ridiculously talented as a overall roster. Will see what other good players outside of Taylor they cut and sure tons of teams will be interested in picking they up. I'm not sure how 2 follows from 1. Please explain. Edited September 2, 2021 by sp6488 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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