Justice League

[Ragnarok]

I think that anyone who know about comics...or at least watched the MCU could see that all the DCEU needed to do was take their time and establish backstories.  The market was easily there.  they just needed to build up a connection with some of the main characters first.  Same way the MCU did.  And they'd be raking in money.  But they rushed things.  And it ruins the entire universe.  

[MacReady]

5 hours ago, Ragnarok said:

I think that anyone who know about comics...or at least watched the MCU could see that all the DCEU needed to do was take their time and establish backstories.  The market was easily there.  they just needed to build up a connection with some of the main characters first.  Same way the MCU did.  And they'd be raking in money.  But they rushed things.  And it ruins the entire universe.  

Bolded is one thing I wish more people could understand, especially executives at WB.  When there's such horrible misfires, it taints the entire thing for me and I can't enjoy aspects I would otherwise enjoy. 

I really hope they realize that their best course is to remove MoS, BvS, SS and JL from the timeline and start from scratch with their two best commodities (WW, The Flash). 

 

[43M]

6 hours ago, Ragnarok said:

I think that anyone who know about comics...or at least watched the MCU could see that all the DCEU needed to do was take their time and establish backstories.  The market was easily there.  they just needed to build up a connection with some of the main characters first.  Same way the MCU did.  And they'd be raking in money.  But they rushed things.  And it ruins the entire universe.  

I think they were so focused on doing things differently than Marvel that they completely ignored what it takes to make these things successful.

They could still turn it around, but they keep digging that hole deeper.    

If Affleck really is leaving, it might be in their best interest just to start from scratch with Matt Reeves Batman movies and build it up from there....however, since Aquaman is pretty much already made and Wonder Woman was a hit, the more likely scenario is that they go with Flashpoint and retcon some things.

Still havent seen Justice League.   I know its not fairing well at the box office, but most of my friends that have seen it and most critics I trust got at least some enjoyment out of it....so chance are Ill probably enjoy it as well.    However, even if I do, there is no denial the path has been rocky and JL IMO needed a better main antagonist.    Steppenwolf perhaps could have worked if they established him and the motherboxes over multiple movies like Marvel did with Loki and the Tesseract, but as Ive stated....their failures in past movies put them in a bad spot with JL, needing JL to do way way WAY too much.

Going forward, as Ive said.....they should just focus on 4 movies....Aquaman, Flashpoint (to fix things that need to be fixed), Batman and Wonder Woman 2.    After that, IMO, things COULD be back on track, and thats when they should push ahead with Man of Steel 2 and Justice League 2.     They need to forget about Shazam, Black Adam, Nightwing, Joker,  Suicide Squad 2 and anything else until they get the main DCEU established.    And everything needs to be connected.....otherwise, just forget about the DCEU altogether.   

[INbengalfan]

1 hour ago, FourThreeMafia said:

....their failures in past movies put them in a bad spot with JL, needing JL to do way way WAY too much.

Going forward, as Ive said.....they should just focus on 4 movies....Aquaman, Flashpoint (to fix things that need to be fixed), Batman and Wonder Woman 2.    

Bingo.  Trying to cut the movie to under two hours is what caused many of the problems for JL.  They could have made things more smooth simply by having more content.  However, i have no idea what was cut out of it.  Still hoping they have an extended version like BvS.

 

If they truly plan on going to an Injustice League as a foe, focusing on these movies (plus MoS2) would start building up the villains as well, so that JL2 can focus on the battle, not character development.

[seminoles1]

They should have stuck with Snyder's version and gone with a new director going forward.  All they did was much things up.

[StLunatic88]

2 hours ago, seminoles1 said:

They should have stuck with Snyder's version and gone with a new director going forward.  All they did was much things up.

I see alot of people say this, and the truth is, there is simply no way we can actually know this.

Maybe Snyders version was WAY WORSE than what we ended up seeing. Maybe the mixed bag feeling of the two directors actually salvaged the film to what we eventually got. The thing is there are just enough scenes that are obviously Snyder or Wheedon to where you cant tell how the original cut would have been. And we really have no idea of what the scenes that Wheedon replaced would have given us in Snyders versions. Sure there have been some concept leaks, but we dont know how they would have really turned out.

They have a Great Wonder Woman, a very entertaining Flash, a Good Enough Superman (possibly great if we get more of this Wheedon version) and an intriguing Aquaman with mostly a blank canvas to create something fun. Just role with that, recast the Batman through Flashpoint, and roll along like most of BvS, SS, and JL never happened. Thats where Im at now, it is salvageable, but they have to do it NOW or else they will have built too much of the world for people to forget.

[43M]

So, I finally got to see Justice League as it came out on digital release.

Very disappointing....and this is coming from someone who enjoyed Man of Steel and BvS (to a point).

First half of the movie or so was an utter mess.   Just felt like a compilation of clips rather than a cohesive movie.   There was absolutely no set up to any of the characters.    It didnt really make me care about any of them.     It was just like..."These are characters in our movie.   We dont feel like making origin films because we dont want to copy Marvel....so just accept that these are important characters and that you should care for them because reasons...."      And Steppenwolf just pretty much came out of nowhere and the backstory felt so forced and rushed.

The 2nd half was better, but alot of that was just meh as well.   The final battle until the end was quite enjoyable.      

Throughout the movie, the special effects were pretty awful.    I hate the aesthetic of most the movie.     You can call it comic booky, this is live action.   Not a fan of anything that relies that heavily on CG effects.     The real life characters often looked odd and out of place in the overly CG environments.   And this wasnt just the action scenes.    Look at the scene where Cyborg and Diana are talking on the streets.   For some reason, the neighborhood they were in was CG.  Why!?!?    They couldnt shoot that in a real neighborhood?      Some parts were just laughably bad.

The writing was just bad.    Starting to think they need to ditch Terrio.      I cant blame him necessarily for how rushed it all was, but the dialogue was often cringeworthy and certain elements were just stupid.   

I wasnt a fan of Ezra Miller's Flash.   Not necessarily all his fault, though.   They made him a little too goofy and awkward.    I get thats who Barry Allen is to a point, but they made this like a cross between Barry Allen and Wally West and it was just way too awkward.    However, part of it was his fault, as I thought certain instances were horribly acted, although that may have been in the direction as well.

Jason Momoa had some great parts, but I wasnt a fan of how the character was written.    If they had just left out all the completely needless 80's rock star persona that was mixed in....he wouldve been excellent.     He shouldve been a brooding loner torn between Atlantis and the "surface dwellers".   

I actually really liked Cyborg.    

Batman was neutered.   Ben did fine, but the character didnt feel nearly as bad *** as he didnt in BvS.    And no, its just just because he wasnt killing people.   He just felt much softer than he should have.

Superman was done pretty well.  I liked that they made him more colorful and upbeat.     Wasnt a fan of everything they did with his return, but there is way too much I wouldve done different in this movie to get stuck on that.

Overall, very meh.     

Marvel makes it look so easy bringing their characters and stories to life in live action...and iMO....it IS easy if you have people who love the characters and know what they are doing.   Problem is, the idiotic studio heads at WB dont care about these characters.   They are foolish enough to believe that if they merely throw them on screen, they will make money.

Between this and news of upcoming projects, I have no real faith left in the DCEU.   Not to say they cant put out some good individual movies....but the universe as a whole?   Only way to fix it would be to start from scratch and that clearly isnt in their plans.   

 

[seminoles1]

The deleted scene of Superman in the Fortress of Solitude is awesome.  Zimmer's Superman score was sorely missed.

[43M]

 

[MacReady]

So you're saying I wasn't wrong for judging it before I saw it? 

Some movies you can just tell. 

[August4th]

JL should of been an "event" film for the ages.. kinda amazing how much they fumbled this

[skywlker32]

I went into this movie with hopes that I would enjoy it more than the other films in DCEU, but I should have just trusted the public view of this movie. There was just so much wrong about the movie that the entertaining parts (there were definitely some) were short lived because they would be followed by a head scratching scene.

The set-up for each character should have been unnecessary, but they didn't introduce 3 of the 6 main heroes before the movie, so they shoe-horn in an intro scene for each. Batman and Wonder Woman shouldn't need where are they now scenes to start the movie anyways and the intros to the other characters made it seem like you should already know them (watching with GF and she asked each time whether she should know who they are).

Everything about the movie seemed very rushed (again if you don't need those intro scenes for the characters...) and motivations were very muddy. Aquaman doesn't like the other heroes so he doesn't really help anyone including other Atlanteans, Cyborg is following Wonder Woman and Batman for reasons (?) but never seems all that opposed to joining them, Steppenwolf comes kind of out of nowhere to get some cubes (only kind of explained about half way through what they even do).

After all of this, you finally get some ok action only for it to end because Steppenwolf's axe gets broken and the parademons (humanoid flys) take him away into the giant bug zapper...err...portal?

 

How does DC keep messing this up? It's so easy.

[StLunatic88]

8 minutes ago, skywlker32 said:

How does DC keep messing this up? It's so easy.

Alright, lets not pretend this is easy. They are clearly screwing things up, but it has been just short of a miracle that the MCU has worked as well as it has. No One has been able to get an entire cinematic universe off the ground. And anyone who has any extended run of a franchise has mostly been one linear story (often from preexisting source material) like a Harry Potter. I know these have comic source material, but it is not even close to the same.

The Fast & Furious franchise might be the only one close to the MCU, and a third of those films are garbage (even though I love them all). In no way is this easy. One film is hard enough.

[skywlker32]

31 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

Alright, lets not pretend this is easy. They are clearly screwing things up, but it has been just short of a miracle that the MCU has worked as well as it has. No One has been able to get an entire cinematic universe off the ground. And anyone who has any extended run of a franchise has mostly been one linear story (often from preexisting source material) like a Harry Potter. I know these have comic source material, but it is not even close to the same.

The Fast & Furious franchise might be the only one close to the MCU, and a third of those films are garbage (even though I love them all). In no way is this easy. One film is hard enough.

Let me put it this way then...they are making simple mistakes. They consistently cram too much into the films. Most of it would be fixed by doing solo movies for each before doing team-ups (for Justice League, maybe just leave Cyborg to introduce and for Suicide Squad have it after the hero introductions leaving 1 or two characters to introduce). So basically, it should be easy to fix (what I meant to convey...obviously making any movie isn't necessarily easy).

[StLunatic88]

51 minutes ago, skywlker32 said:

Most of it would be fixed by doing solo movies for each before doing team-ups

I have addressed this strawman argument before. The path of the DC movies has been VERY similar to Phase 1 of the MCU.

They didnt just jump into Justice League. The time frame from Iron Man to The Avengers was April 2008 to April 2012 (4 years). The time frame from Man of Steel to Justice League is June 2013 to November 2017 (almost 4.5 years). The MCU Phase 1 is made up of 6 films, while the DC run up has been 5 films. If you compare those films they also line up very closely. 

Film 1 - Stand alone origin film. Intro into this new world, not showing much connectivity to the expansive universe, but hints of the others out there.

• Iron Man -> Man of Steel

Film 2 - The one that really doesnt fit with the rest of the world, that kind of ended up its own thing, and one of the main characters probably needs to be recast

• The Incredible Hulk -> Suicide Squad

Film 3 - The first sequel, that really opens up the world, where we meet more pieces of the Team-Up, was probably too ambitious, but...

• Iron Man 2 -> Batman v Superman

Film 4/5 - More solo origin films for the rest of the big players on the team. An off world struggle for the monarchy and a period piece during War time

• Thor -> (Should have been Aquaman)
• Captain America -> Wonder Woman

Film 6 - The Team-up, where they are taking on the big bad and their army of faceless minions, who himself is actually a minion of the Biggest Bad

• The Avengers -> Justice League

 

All of this just to point out that the narrative that DC somehow went about this 'backwards' is just down right false. The biggest differences come when they made the decision to turn MoS2 into BvS, and instead of introducing the smaller characters of Black Widow, Nick Fury, and Hawkeye (in Thor) we got the big characters of Batman, Wonder Woman an The Flash. And then having one less Origin Film (Batman got wrapped up into BvS, and Aquaman is after JL).

The real issue is the execution, not the overall plan. And it all started when they hired a guy to make a Superman film, who only wanted to make a Batman movie.