Ward officially a bust?

[big_palooka]

50 minutes ago, holyghost said:

How has EV popped? One highlight reel play on Conklin in game 1 that didn't even really factor into the play? The guy has done next to nothing, 0 impact plays. I said earlier in the week and last week that Vanderdoes was following Ward's arc. There's nothing at all to suggest that is untrue. And on this one I believe PFF. Ward got washed around like a dirty rag but had the occasional pressure. Vanderdoes isn't washed out like Ward but has no pass rush at all. Same guy, small shift. 

He was solid against Miami. Had a couple stops and pressures. Most complete game I've seen from him. DT is a tough spot to transition to. What rookie DT taken mid-rounds is just jumping off the screen right now?

My issue is patience. Fans just don't have it anymore with draft picks.... Ward was a project and people want instant results? 

[Chali21]

Wow EV is a bust 9 games into his career. Ward I get he was a high second round pick and he was a miss. I get the thought process, he's a big althetic guy like MEJ who was really good his first season, so they thought why not try to get lightning to strike twice? This happens pretty often though, by multiple teams in the NFL. Go through the Patriots draft classes and see how many busts in the first few rounds they've had. Honestly we are only having this discussion because the Raider's are 4-5 if they where 6-3 or 7-2 no one would care about a back up DT.

[big_palooka]

17 minutes ago, Chali21 said:

Wow EV is a bust 9 games into his career. Ward I get he was a high second round pick and he was a miss. I get the thought process, he's a big althetic guy like MEJ who was really good his first season, so they thought why not try to get lightning to strike twice? This happens pretty often though, by multiple teams in the NFL. Go through the Patriots draft classes and see how many busts in the first few rounds they've had. Honestly we are only having this discussion because the Raider's are 4-5 if they where 6-3 or 7-2 no one would care about a back up DT.

Pretty much. And I personally would like to see what this group could do with better defensive coaches. 

Coaching can make a difference. I just want to see a competent DC given a shot at molding this group. 

[NightTrainLane]

36 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Pretty much. And I personally would like to see what this group could do with better defensive coaches. 

Coaching can make a difference. I just want to see a competent DC given a shot at molding this group. 

I'd like to see what this front seven could do with healthy off-seasons together but it hasn't happened yet either. Hypothetical situations always sound good when things aren't going 100% positively. 

[Baggabonez]

14 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Pretty much nails why I can't stand PFF. Eye test alone, EV has popped more than Ward ever did. You ask me who has more potential right now, and it's EV fairly easily.

This is what drives me crazy about the anti-analytics crowd (although I've personally enjoyed reading your POV through the years). PFF literrally said "perspective". If you think Ward is a bust and Does needs time to develop then "perspective" suggests giving Ward more time. If you think Ward is a bust and wasn't high on Does then this suggests there's evidence both have had similar impact. If you think BOTH need more time and think it's too early to measure their impact then there's nothing to see here.

Unfortunately, draft position is a factor. If Ward was a 5th rounder everyone would probably still be excited about his development and laud RM for swinging for the fences. But as a slow developer Ward may still pan out as a serviceable player but probably not for the Raiders which reflects badly on the FO. I'm just left wondering what did PFF wrong?

[big_palooka]

33 minutes ago, Baggabonez said:

This is what drives me crazy about the anti-analytics crowd (although I've personally enjoyed reading your POV through the years). PFF literrally said "perspective". If you think Ward is a bust and Does needs time to develop then "perspective" suggests giving Ward more time. If you think Ward is a bust and wasn't high on Does then this suggests there's evidence both have had similar impact. If you think BOTH need more time and think it's too early to measure their impact then there's nothing to see here.

Unfortunately, draft position is a factor. If Ward was a 5th rounder everyone would probably still be excited about his development and laud RM for swinging for the fences. But as a slow developer Ward may still pan out as a serviceable player but probably not for the Raiders which reflects badly on the FO. I'm just left wondering what did PFF wrong?

I'm in this camp. So that's part of my argument here. It's too early to judge. Especially at a DE/DL position where the learning curve both mentally and from a strength position, etc. take time to develop. 

My distaste for PFF is it's become the barometer for many as to how a player is performing. And I just disagree with their way of looking at the game. Fans cling to PFF and determine a players value often off their rankings which are subjective. 

Agree w/ you on the draft position. That will always be a factor in these debates. Fans want value for those high picks. Look at the 2017 class, and with a couple exceptions.... there are a lot of players developing from that class from pick 44(Ward) down.

[dante9876]

22 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

I'm in this camp. So that's part of my argument here. It's too early to judge. Especially at a DE/DL position where the learning curve both mentally and from a strength position, etc. take time to develop. 

My distaste for PFF is it's become the barometer for many as to how a player is performing. And I just disagree with their way of looking at the game. Fans cling to PFF and determine a players value often off their rankings which are subjective. 

Agree w/ you on the draft position. That will always be a factor in these debates. Fans want value for those high picks. Look at the 2017 class, and with a couple exceptions.... there are a lot of players developing from that class from pick 44(Ward) down.

How many of those players are not dressing for their team at a position on their team thats been garbage. Draft position do matter. But its funny. Cause ive seen you banging the drum in draft threads over the years here about drafting good football players early and not just over athletic guys. But now we wasting 2nd rd and 3rd rd picks on guys who may make some sort of impact 3 or 4 years after they are drafted and thats ok now. Dont make any sense. 

[NightTrainLane]

29 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

I'm in this camp. So that's part of my argument here. It's too early to judge. Especially at a DE/DL position where the learning curve both mentally and from a strength position, etc. take time to develop. 

My distaste for PFF is it's become the barometer for many as to how a player is performing. And I just disagree with their way of looking at the game. Fans cling to PFF and determine a players value often off their rankings which are subjective. 

Agree w/ you on the draft position. That will always be a factor in these debates. Fans want value for those high picks. Look at the 2017 class, and with a couple exceptions.... there are a lot of players developing from that class from pick 44(Ward) down.

Just because someone post a comment citing PFF doesn't mean they are "clinging to it". It's one perspective. Pretty sure everyone knows that. They clearly state how they rank. It's not a state secret.

If you don't like the perspective, fine. But a commentary on why you don't like them every time an they are mentioned isn't needed. If you really disagree so much with their methods and viewpoint then why don't you cite another site or analysis' work to refute it instead of just moaning about them. It would be more effective IMO.

[big_palooka]

17 minutes ago, dante9876 said:

How many of those players are not dressing for their team at a position on their team thats been garbage. Draft position do matter. But its funny. Cause ive seen you banging the drum in draft threads over the years here about drafting good football players early and not just over athletic guys. But now we wasting 2nd rd and 3rd rd picks on guys who may make some sort of impact 3 or 4 years after they are drafted and thats ok now. Dont make any sense. 

Whoa.... don't get it twisted. I was not a fan of the Ward selection at the time. You are correct, I value production and ball players over athletes 90% of the time. I wanted Henry when they were on the clock and was all in on Hargraves in round 3 at DL.

I'm speaking from the platform of what's done is done, so let's see what happens. I'm just arguing for letting the player develop and for fans to pump the breaks on the bust label after a year and a half on a raw prospect who got dinged up. 

[SilverNBlackFan]

2 hours ago, Baggabonez said:

Unfortunately, draft position is a factor. If Ward was a 5th rounder everyone would probably still be excited about his development and laud RM for swinging for the fences. 

Disagree. If Ward was a 5th rounder, he'd probably be cut by now or on someone's PS.

We've seen nothing from the guy to get us excited about his development. 

[NightTrainLane]

50 minutes ago, SilverNBlackFan said:

Disagree. If Ward was a 5th rounder, he'd probably be cut by now or on someone's PS.

We've seen nothing from the guy to get us excited about his development. 

But that is the point, you're going off your assessment of him not being on the field. That isn't the teams assessment and they are the ones that have a say. They have repeatedly talked about his development.

[Dessie]

Conley to IR. No doubt some will call him a bust now..

[Nodisrespect]

27 minutes ago, Dessie said:

Conley to IR. No doubt some will call him a bust now..

He actually looked good when he played though....

[holyghost]

4 hours ago, big_palooka said:

I'm in this camp. So that's part of my argument here. It's too early to judge. Especially at a DE/DL position where the learning curve both mentally and from a strength position, etc. take time to develop. 

My distaste for PFF is it's become the barometer for many as to how a player is performing. And I just disagree with their way of looking at the game. Fans cling to PFF and determine a players value often off their rankings which are subjective. 

Agree w/ you on the draft position. That will always be a factor in these debates. Fans want value for those high picks. Look at the 2017 class, and with a couple exceptions.... there are a lot of players developing from that class from pick 44(Ward) down.

This is not necessarily where I am coming from. At no point can I say Vanderdoes is a "bust", nor can Ward be considered one just yet. I'm giving them the time they need when it comes to bust labels or not. My take is that #1 there's nothing saying Vanderdoes is looking better than Ward's arc, and #2 when you draft guys this high and have such immediate needs on defense, it really would have helped alot if these guys were actually solid contributors out of the gate. Saying they are doesn't prove they are in any way. They're not. Both poor thus far. Losing 1,2,3 years waiting for high draft picks to develop is a staple of the old Raiders of the truly ugly years. He's a 3rd so it's not as expected. But when your 1st and your 2nd rounders aren't contributing a damn thing in year one or two, and last year's 3rd was cut, that is NOT good. And not helping.

 

It's about draft position, yeah. But... A team can ill afford to use draft picks in the 1st 3 rounds on guys who add nothing for 2 years or more. It's damaging. They spend those years playing badly and it costs us, actively. One of the reasons they D continues to be so bad is the largely disastrous drafts of the last two years. No definitive bust among them (though I think it's safe to say Calhoun). But not one high draft pick has showed up and elevated the defense at all. To summarize - a big reason we continue to suck on defense is because we continue to wait on these guys to develop, while they're getting playing time and playing poorly. How many decades have we all watched this same thing happen? At this point I'd rather see a smarter shift in draft philosophy. Draft higher floor lower ceiling players who can contribute right away whole are fit well to and in the right scheme with solid coaching and a coordinator they can rely on to enhance their games... They're gone in 4 years anyway unless they're a star or a strict role player who isn't going to cash in anywhere. I just don't get it, and didn't get it when Al Davis did it. Too much time is wasted and too many losses pile up while they wait on project guys or value picks to "develop" into some sort of impossible supreme defense that can just beat everyone man to man across the roster. Then if and when they actually do develop, they barely contribute anything positive in a Raiders uniform and then leave. Or contribute nothing at all and develop elsewhere. Or more likely, never develop and wash out of the league shortly after they bilk the Raiders on a 4 year contract. 

So ultimately for me it hasn't a damn thing to do with "bust" or "not bust". It has to do with wasted time losing games on non contributing players who we're always waiting "to develop". And when they do, it's a guy like Ellis who turns from 3 years of space filler into one year of below average to average. And I'm supposed to be excited about that?

That's my conundrum. If you wait 4 years on Ellis to become nothing special, why the hell did you draft him. You can buy a middling pro for cheap for 2 years, or a vet, do it again in 2 years, and get better play out of it. And then, if you cut Ellis right off the bat for someone better day one - well then why the hell was he drafted to begin with?! He may not be the best example, but I have a point. Defensive scheme and roles are not clear enough through the organization, specifics of players picked are not clear enough as to how and where they actually fit. There has to be a way to pick a guy in early draft slots who can do better than our guys usually do early on. And it has to do with not trying to hit all home runs. It has to do with hitting more singles and doubles. But that only works if your defensive systems are good and strong, and you find guys who fit well. 

 

And I don't think if Ward was a 5th anyone would or should be lauding the pick. Probably be trashing it still, like a guy like Cook for example. At least a QB is worth the high bust risk because of how valuable they are if you hit. But you don't get excited over a 5th rounder who plays poorly his 1st year and misses his 2nd. Nothing there to laud. 

[dante9876]

To much to quote holyghost, but that post was spot on.