The 2023 Draft Thread - We're picking #7

[Frankie2Gunz]

4 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

This. 

I liked our draft last year and thought the value was decent for what we had. And we moved around a little. 

Unfortunately, we won't know for another year or two, if he sticks around. Outside of making Mayock reaches, we haven't been in a position where we could really go wrong taking anybody. Once the roster begins to actually fill out, we'll know of he has an eye for understanding needs vs wants. The FA strategy gives me some pause on that, as we went overkill at WR by about a mile. 

Is he a guy that will take nifty toys at sexy positions over actual needs? We'll find out. 

 

 

There are only a few positions that make sense at 7 and if DZ deviates from those positions then I question his ability to do his job.  the positions in play are QB, Edge, CB and potentially 3T if Carter is on the board and he checks out.  There is no other position in play other than those 4.  RT is not in play as the value is not there.  

[101Raider]

13 hours ago, BayRaider said:

I prefer Van Ness but I like both Van Ness and Nolan. The only top edge I’m not sold on is Murphy.

Curious, why Murphy?

[big_palooka]

15 hours ago, Humble_Beast said:

I don’t have time to watch college football. People act like they watch every game of each prospect. Let’s keep it real here 

Then why make such a lazy uneducated comment about Nolan Smith? What is based on?

[big_palooka]

14 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

Yeah… i wasn’t saying the quote was the center of THIS article, cuz yeah I didn’t read it, nor claimed to. 
 

“I think there’s a good percentage of quotes like this that range from entirely made up to real but dressed up.  The quote becomes the centerpiece of the story, what stops a writer from making it up or embellishing?”

So maybe “if you read it” you’d have known that.  I’m talking in generalities.

Hondo Carpenter wouldn’t push an agenda? What about the article he wrote all about “What really happened with Carr”: https://www.si.com/nfl/raiders/the-black-hole-plus/las-vegas-raiders-derek-carr-dave-ziegler-tom-brady-josh-mcdaniels-mark-davis

Its filled with quotes from unnamed sources.  All the quotes are polished and  fit perfectly and the framing of the story he’s trying to tell…. Or should I say the the story he’s trying to tell for McDaniels…. Because it’s painfully obvious he’s pushing a narrative over telling the real story.  

He goes out of his way to tell the story of Carr being too sensitive and couldn’t handle criticism (which I believe is true but ever so slightly skewed) and JMD is “Mr. Accountable” and perfect.  Where was the balance in the article about JMD not holding himself accountable or falling short of perfection? If your really writing an article about what happened your suppose to show all sides.  But that’s not really what this was…. It was HC buying favor from a HC that’s KNOWN for leaking to the media to paint himself in a better light.  It started with him and Cutler in Denver and most recently with Carr and Waller.  That’s why Josh is nicknamed “The Snake” by a good part of the league.

 JMD was far from Perfect last year and definitely didn’t meet the perfectionist standard every single week that is “Patriot Way” require and demand.  The whole article is about Josh’s criticism of Carr breaking him…. But portrays JMD as this gold standard… but in reality he seems like he’s got autism and lacks peoples skills…. Was it better to break Carr to uphold your “Patriot Way” or realize what your doing isn’t working and temporarily adjusting it to coach him up for the betterment of the team And season.  The guy was the lowest rated Coach by a players poll and when asked about it he Showed arrogance and Zero humility and desire to understand players issues and be a better coach.

Where was the duality in this piece that was introspective of Josh’s performance and role?  It was absolutely missing.  
He literally wrote “Josh McDaniels' respect for and admiration of Derek Carr was absolute. He is genuine.”  Josh is the complete opposite of genuine, his nickname Is “The Snake” for A reason.  A Little bit earlier in the article it talks about him cussing out Carr vulgarly in open meetings.  That’s respect and admiration?  I Think not.  

Hondo’s prolly a really good guy, a rather good writer, but the job requires playing a politician at times…. You gotta give to get, long goes the days of writers holding people accountable…. There’s no nostalgia left… Carr was gone, he’s no longer an asset, so he rolls with the HC and tells the story the HC wants told so he has the access for the future.

So…. No I’m not going to put Hondo Carpenter on a pedestal.  What Lense do I look thru? One that questions everything.  I everyone’s got an agenda, even myself!

To each their own. If you care to discredit it all, that's your prerogative. The truth is always in the middle with these type things.

There is more than one way to coach. JMD coaches in the style he grew up in from the Bill Parcells' tree. Parcells coached with military level discipline and authority. Belichik has embodied that his entire career with great success. Nick Saban at Alabama. JMD and others haven't struck that same chord. 

The modern NFL player has become more about the individual, the celebrity, the brand with social media. It's about "getting the bag" and what's in it for me. Coaches are expected to bend to the players, not the other way around.

To that, maybe the Parcells way is out dated and doesn't work with the modern athlete and JMD is the latest experiment in that. And that plays largely in the type players they want. They don't want guys who need coddled, they want soldiers or "robots" as some frame it. Guys that "do their job" for the greater good. A Military-esque operation. 

To me, that is why a lot of these Patriot way coaches have struck out. That exists, those players exist... but they are hard to accumulate in this age of athlete.

[jimkelly02]

3 hours ago, big_palooka said:

To each their own. If you care to discredit it all, that's your prerogative. The truth is always in the middle with these type things.

There is more than one way to coach. JMD coaches in the style he grew up in from the Bill Parcells' tree. Parcells coached with military level discipline and authority. Belichik has embodied that his entire career with great success. Nick Saban at Alabama. JMD and others haven't struck that same chord. 

Your absolutely right the truth is in the middle…. 

which is why the one sided article was ridiculous to me.  Hence, why I said there was no duality to the examination of what happened.  I’ve said numerous times Carr played a major role on the field in the decision to move on from him and he plays some role in the collapse of the relationship.  Because there’s two sides to the situation.  But when you hear Carr talk and see his humility, humor… and I believe his relationship with God grounds him and has opened him up to understanding others, etc… I don’t see nothing but ego and autism when I hear people who have been close to JMD talk about him and him talk… 

But What about Mac Jones calling him a father figure? 
Things went well for the 2 in 1 single year…. Players often say nice things about coaches and don’t take the time or accept the exposure from telling a full, detailed account of things.  But I’ll take numerous accounts over 1.

I discredit it because If you can’t tell a fair and balanced story your account is not trustworthy…. That doesn’t mean incidents he depicted can’t be valid… but there’s the issue with no named sources, picture perfect quotes that are super short and could be lacking significant context.  How can I trust a writer who isn’t fair and balanced to give full picture of a snippet in time?

Edited April 8, 2023 by jimkelly02

[jimkelly02]

7 hours ago, 101Raider said:

Curious, why Murphy?

Probably doesn’t like him after doing his psychological examination on him.

[big_palooka]

3 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

Your absolutely right the truth is in the middle…. 

which is why the one sided article was ridiculous to me.  Hence, why I said there was no duality to the examination of what happened.  I’ve said numerous times Carr played a major role on the field in the decision to move on from him and he plays some role in the collapse of the relationship.  Because there’s two sides to the situation.  But when you hear Carr talk and see his humility, humor… and I believe his relationship with God grounds him and has opened him up to understanding others, etc… I don’t see nothing but ego and autism when I hear people who have been close to JMD talk about him and him talk… 

But What about Mac Jones calling him a father figure? 
Things went well for the 2 in 1 single year…. Players often say nice things about coaches and don’t take the time or accept the exposure from telling a full, detailed account of things.  But I’ll take numerous accounts over 1.

I discredit it because If you can’t tell a fair and balanced story your account is not trustworthy…. That doesn’t mean incidents he depicted can’t be valid… but there’s the issue with no named sources, picture perfect quotes that are super short and could be lacking significant context.  How can I trust a writer who isn’t fair and balanced to give full picture of a snippet in time?

You discredit it because it doesn't fit your narrative. If I've noticed one thing, you are quick to bring up his days in Denver. You use examples like Cutler (who was a bum for what it's worth) and other players from that era's comments as gospel for the characterization of McDaniels. 

My issue with that is, it doesn't jive with the current characterization of him from his players in NE, Mac Jones being just one example. Or guys like Crosby and Adams last season. But those are dismissed as "players often say nice things about coaches". 

So in this article, when something is said positive about him, you dismiss it because "yeah but in Denver" .... Well that was over a decade ago. 

Anyway.... time will tell. Not going to further derail the draft talk here. 

 

[jimkelly02]

1 hour ago, big_palooka said:

You discredit it because it doesn't fit your narrative. If I've noticed one thing, you are quick to bring up his days in Denver. You use examples like Cutler (who was a bum for what it's worth) and other players from that era's comments as gospel for the characterization of McDaniels. 

My issue with that is, it doesn't jive with the current characterization of him from his players in NE, Mac Jones being just one example. Or guys like Crosby and Adams last season. But those are dismissed as "players often say nice things about coaches". 

So in this article, when something is said positive about him, you dismiss it because "yeah but in Denver" .... Well that was over a decade ago. 

Anyway.... time will tell. Not going to further derail the draft talk here. 

Lol you cling to Mac Jones comments like their like their the word of God.  And what are Adams and Crosby going to say “yeah our coach stinks… but I just signed a massive deal with 4 more years… so ya, we’ll see”  yeah, you can’t slam your coach… cuz you’ll have to pack up your wife and kids and move when he trades you.  What’s the upside in that?

I’ll trust countless ex players and some coaches over Mac Jones’s comments.

I don’t have a narrative… we have a coach with issues… I’m just mentioning it.  I’d love it if Josh had an epiphany and could combine his “offensive genius mind” with personal skills.  It happened for the tin man and Sheldon copper, maybe it’ll happen for Josh.  Sadly, it seems the bigger his head gets (look at that block head grow over the years) the bigger his ego gets.

Edited April 8, 2023 by jimkelly02

[NickButera]

18 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

Lol you cling to Mac Jones comments like their like their the word of God.  And what are Adams and Crosby going to say “yeah our coach stinks… but I just signed a massive deal with 4 more years… so ya, we’ll see”  yeah, you can’t slam your coach… cuz you’ll have to pack up your wife and kids and move when he trades you.  What’s the upside in that?

I’ll trust countless ex players and some coaches over Mac Jones’s comments.

I don’t have a narrative… we have a coach with issues… I’m just mentioning it.  I’d love it if Josh had an epiphany and could combine his “offensive genius mind” with personal skills.  It happened for the tin man and Sheldon copper, maybe it’ll happen for Josh.  Sadly, it seems the bigger his head gets (look at that block head grow over the years) the bigger his ego gets.

Fwiw Hondo's new article had some comments and sources that really cleared up his Carr article. Essentially that McDaniels is very personal and relational as a person, but when it comes to his job, he is very cold and a "do it my way" kind of coach. He compared it to gruden who was less personal day to day but he loved football collaboration and would listen to anyone who wanted to talk football with him, including players who came to him with ideas. (I.e-Carr)

[massraider]

On 4/8/2023 at 12:33 PM, jimkelly02 said:

 But when you hear Carr talk and see his humility, humor… and I believe his relationship with God grounds him and has opened him up to understanding others, etc… I don’t see nothing but ego and autism when I hear people who have been close to JMD talk about him and him talk… 

Did you find it unusual that none of his teammates really cared when he was benched, or were angry when he left?

[ronjon1990]

20 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

Lol you cling to Mac Jones comments like their like their the word of God.  And what are Adams and Crosby going to say “yeah our coach stinks… but I just signed a massive deal with 4 more years… so ya, we’ll see”  yeah, you can’t slam your coach… cuz you’ll have to pack up your wife and kids and move when he trades you.  What’s the upside in that?

I’ll trust countless ex players and some coaches over Mac Jones’s comments.

I don’t have a narrative… we have a coach with issues… I’m just mentioning it.  I’d love it if Josh had an epiphany and could combine his “offensive genius mind” with personal skills.  It happened for the tin man and Sheldon copper, maybe it’ll happen for Josh.  Sadly, it seems the bigger his head gets (look at that block head grow over the years) the bigger his ego gets.

1. I'm not going to go dig up Myles Jack and Trevor Lawrence's comments about Urb while he was still there. But he readily dismissed those as nonsense. If it fits the narrative he wants (aka: whatever kisses McDaniels' rear no matter what) it's golden. If not, it's rubbish. 

2. Mac Jones. The same Mac Jones that Bill B is apparently sick of and has a bit of an entitlement and attitude issue gushes about a coach with a bit of an entitlement and attitude issue? Something, something, birds of a feather. Ironically, Mac is apparently in Bill's doghouse for going outside of the organization to seek advice- something he probably learned as a result of McDaniels' lack of willingness to collaborate, which simply is not a good thing no matter how it's spun. 

3. McDaniels' rigidity and apparent lack of collaboration is going to be a detriment to any team he's given power over. Ask anyone who has ever been I'm a high stakes profession what a "my way or the highway" approach and lack of two-way communication does. A good doctor consults other doctors, residents, trusted nurses, outside specialists, anesthesiologists. Everyone in the operating room has to be on the same page and it goes beyond the operating doc's ego. Good attorneys talk to their client, detectives, witnesses, other attorneys, the ADA's, judges, clerks, paralegals, etc, to build cases. No good attorney starts and ends their collaboration in an initial interview planning session by saying "Only do exactly what I tell you to do". That sort of thing breeds mistrust- warranted or not- and isn't conducive to a team approach. That crap may fly at Wal Mart with a middle manager Todd and the night stocking shift, but it's not flying with professionals who actually know what they're doing and have a vested interest in the results. I find it even more ironic that people want to cite it as purely "militaristic"- in what military? A half *** Junta dictatorship with the generalissimo? Because even the US military doesn't, and couldn't, run that rigidly from top to bottom. The highest person n the chain of command may take full responsibility/blame, but not one single NCO or officer worth their salt and rank is ever going to take a totally non-collaborative approach with their ancillary staff, and most importantly, their point man (in this case, the QB). Even the great "Patriot Way" doesn't take that approach. There are countless stories of Bill- a defensive guy, ffs- and Tom sitting in meetings digesting tape. Ever notice on those special reports that Josh was absent? Folks can call it whatever they want, but I don't think Josh even exports the "Patriot Way" so much as he's exporting the "McDaniels Way". 

Edited April 9, 2023 by ronjon1990

[jimkelly02]

6 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

1. I'm not going to go dig up Myles Jack and Trevor Lawrence's comments about Urb while he was still there. But he readily dismissed those as nonsense. If it fits the narrative he wants (aka: whatever kisses McDaniels' rear no matter what) it's golden. If not, it's rubbish. 

2. Mac Jones. The same Mac Jones that Bill B is apparently sick of and has a bit of an entitlement and attitude issue gushes about a coach with a bit of an entitlement and attitude issue? Something, something, birds of a feather. Ironically, Mac is apparently in Bills doghouse for going outside of the organization to advice- something he probably learned as a result of McDaniels' lack of willingness to collaborate, which simply is not a good thing no matter how it's spun. 

3. McDaniels' rigidity and apparent lack of collaboration is going to be a detriment to any team he's given power over. Ask anyone who has ever been I'm a high stakes profession what a "my way or the highway" approach and lack of two-way communication does. A good doctor consults other doctors, residents, trusted nurses, outside specialists, anesthesiologists. Everyone in the operating room has to be on the same page and it goes beyond the operating doc's ego. Good attorneys talk to their client, detectives, witnesses, other attorneys, the ADA's, judges, clerks, paralegals, etc, to build cases. No good attorney starts and ends their collaboration in an initial interview planning session by saying "Only do exactly what I tell you to do". That sort of thing breeds mistrust- warranted or not- and isn't conducive to a team approach. That crap may fly at Wal Mart with a middle manager Todd and the night stocking shift, but it's not flying with professionals who actually know what they're doing and have a vested interest in the results. I find it even more ironic that people want to cite it as purely "militaristic"- in what military? A half *** Junta dictatorship with the generalissimo? Because even the US military doesn't, and couldn't, run that rigidly from top to bottom. The highest person n the chain of command may take full responsibility/blame, but not one single NCO or officer worth their salt and rank is ever going to take a totally non-collaborative approach with their ancillary staff, and most importantly, their point man (in this case, the QB). Even the great "Patriot Way" doesn't take that approach. There are countless stories of Bill- a defensive guy, ffs- and Tom sitting in meetings digesting tape. Ever notice on those special reports that Josh was absent? Folks can call it whatever they want, but I don't think Josh even exports the "Patriot Way" so much as he's exporting the "McDaniels Way". 

Your absolutely right… Belicheck gets portrayed as this military general… and yes he definitely brings some aspects of it… but he’s not this Idi Amin type of dictator.  Yes he runs a tight ship but there’s no way you have that level of success for that long without relating to players.

JMD will be complaining 30 years from now how he’d have been successful if they just followed my plan!  I’d absolutely love to get a full psychological evaluation done on him… maybe BayRaider can do it for us.

[jimkelly02]

53 minutes ago, massraider said:

Did you find it unusual that none of his teammates really cared when he was benched, or were angry when he left?

Not really, you have a HC who actually searches the players social media accounts like a crazy person, so why would you open yourself up to financial loss and hardship (ie being traded) that comes from the retaliation that would bring.  I’m sure players spoke privately about it though.  It’s not like speaking out would have brought Carr back.  The writing was on the wall for weeks.

Edited April 9, 2023 by jimkelly02

[jimkelly02]

2 hours ago, NickButera said:

Fwiw Hondo's new article had some comments and sources that really cleared up his Carr article. Essentially that McDaniels is very personal and relational as a person, but when it comes to his job, he is very cold and a "do it my way" kind of coach. He compared it to gruden who was less personal day to day but he loved football collaboration and would listen to anyone who wanted to talk football with him, including players who came to him with ideas. (I.e-Carr)

Maybe Josh is likeable or whatever outside of work, but in every serious profession a boss needs to maintain the balance of “I’m in charge” and yet relatable.

Look at Dana White from the UFC… do you think he’s an easy guy to work for?  Nope, but the other side of him and why he’s successful is this:

I don’t think @ronjon1990, I, and others are being ridiculous or even wrong for questioning these things about JMD.  When he was named the HC the biggest question was “will he learn from his time in Denver?”.  It doesn’t appear he has after year 1 and heading into year 2.

I think the biggest problem is JMD wants to be this unquestioned Boss but doesn’t earn the players respect that’s required for it to work.  

[bucksavage1]

7 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said:

Not really, you have a HC who actually searches the players social media accounts like a crazy person, so why would you open yourself up to financial loss and hardship (ie being traded) that comes from the retaliation that would bring.  I’m sure players spoke privately about it though.  It’s not like speaking out would have brought Carr back.  The writing was on the wall for weeks.

Players couldn’t wait until someone held Carr accountable for his play