EDGE Talk

[Scoundrel]

12 minutes ago, Ragnarok said:

I could see Van Ness having a similar career as Sam Hubbard.  Very good against the run and while he may never be a double digit sack guy, he will make an impact as a pass rusher.

 

BDL stud and champion Sam Hubbard? Sign me up!

[Daniel]

36 minutes ago, goldfishwars said:

Man, give me an edge that can threaten the outside if you want to take one early. Functionally strong NFL tackles will trap that dude all day long knowing he's not getting round him, especially if he's raw in the toolbox. 

Yeah.  Like I said, I need to watch more of his tape, but I saw a little of him watching Iowa games for Jack Campbell, and he never jumped off the tape.  Any DL that doesn't jump off the tape when you watch them is someone I'm going to immediately be bearish on.  And I watched like two full games to scout out Campbell.

36 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

First glance, and I'll try to do some more research later, but Van Ness is a high floor run stopper with some potential to be more. I'm not sure how much I know/love his ceiling, but I think he's got the ability to be a good run stopping DE and capable NFL starter.

I'm thinking this may be a Jayson Oweh situation, where the skill set is there, and he's gonna measure like a dream, so teams are betting on potential.  I didn't like Oweh as a first rounder, because the tape didn't justify it, but he's got some sacks.  Didn't really watch many Ravens games this year though, so someone else might be a better authority on how he's developed.

I just don't understand how you can say so and so would have had way bigger numbers if he had more snaps, and the fact that he didn't have more snaps isn't a big red flag by itself.  I know Iowa had a fantastic defense, but were there that many Edges that were the level of a top 10-15 pick to justify not having him in the game more often?  What's the story there?

[MWil23]

23 minutes ago, Daniel said:

I'm thinking this may be a Jayson Oweh situation, where the skill set is there, and he's gonna measure like a dream, so teams are betting on potential.  I didn't like Oweh as a first rounder, because the tape didn't justify it, but he's got some sacks.  Didn't really watch many Ravens games this year though, so someone else might be a better authority on how he's developed.

@AFlaccoSeagulls @Ray Reed @wackywabbit correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Oweh really more or less disappointed this year, correct?

23 minutes ago, Daniel said:

I just don't understand how you can say so and so would have had way bigger numbers if he had more snaps, and the fact that he didn't have more snaps isn't a big red flag by itself. 

You as in you general, or you as in me, because I never said that LOL.

23 minutes ago, Daniel said:

I know Iowa had a fantastic defense, but were there that many Edges that were the level of a top 10-15 pick to justify not having him in the game more often?  What's the story there?

Great question and one that I don't know the answer to. I do know that their Front 7 is superb and they really demand a lot more from their LBs/their defense revolves around them and their ability to play a lot of zone defense while maintaining gap integrity on the DL.

[Scoundrel]

Derick Hall still 21 until March and in the Senior Bowl with over 34” arms I really like him. Also Will McDonald with the 35” arms is sweet

[Scoundrel]

1 minute ago, MWil23 said:

but I believe Oweh really more or less disappointed this year, correct?

27 minutes ago, Daniel said:

You didn’t tag me but yes he did 

[MWil23]

5 minutes ago, Scoundrel said:

Derick Hall still 21 until March and in the Senior Bowl with over 34” arms I really like him. Also Will McDonald with the 35” arms is sweet

Hall is a bit of an enigma to me. He can potentially be a 3-4 or 4-3 type as he has a background as a LB as well.

McDonald is a bit of an older prospect, but I love what Iowa State does defensively as far as scheme goes. Usually those guys are pretty technically sound and smart.

[Daniel]

25 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

@AFlaccoSeagulls @Ray Reed @wackywabbit correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Oweh really more or less disappointed this year, correct?

You as in you general, or you as in me, because I never said that LOL.

Great question and one that I don't know the answer to. I do know that their Front 7 is superb and they really demand a lot more from their LBs/their defense revolves around them and their ability to play a lot of zone defense while maintaining gap integrity on the DL.

So I just watched Iowa against Ohio St and Michigan, and yeah, that DL has like three dudes that are getting drafted.

But my initial guess I think was on the money.  LVN is an elite bull rusher, and I think that might be all he is.  When he gets a head full of steam and charged, neither Paris Johnson nor Ryan Hayes could stop him.  Hayes held up better than Johnson did, but barely.  Dawand Jones stonewalled him though (but they only had a few reps), and Michigan's right tackle and right guard just pushed him into the dirt when he got too low on them.

Worse, there was one time in each game where he got to the QB unimpeded, and both QBs just outran him because they were faster.  And there were tight ends that were able to stop him in both instances as well.

I honestly don't think he's really an Edge.  He's a 3-4 DE.

[MWil23]

22 minutes ago, Daniel said:

So I just watched Iowa against Ohio St and Michigan, and yeah, that DL has like three dudes that are getting drafted.

But my initial guess I think was on the money.  LVN is an elite bull rusher, and I think that might be all he is.  When he gets a head full of steam and charged, neither Paris Johnson nor Ryan Hayes could stop him.  Hayes held up better than Johnson did, but barely.  Dawand Jones stonewalled him though (but they only had a few reps), and Michigan's right tackle and right guard just pushed him into the dirt when he got too low on them.

Worse, there was one time in each game where he got to the QB unimpeded, and both QBs just outran him because they were faster.  And there were tight ends that were able to stop him in both instances as well.

I honestly don't think he's really an Edge.  He's a 3-4 DE.

Yeah, I think his best value is that he could potentially be a nice swing DT/DE...so a run stopping DE or even having some potential 5 Tech value with his raw strength and length, with maybe kicking inside on 3rd Downs as an interior rusher.

Jones is a very strong at the point of attack guy and always has been.

I think he could be a 4-3 5 Tech type ala Seattle back in the day or even how San Francisco uses some of their dudes...or if you have a scheme like Cleveland where you have a guy like Myles line up in a wide 9 and then have him playing a JAM/7 Tech on a TE while setting a hard edge.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

@AFlaccoSeagulls @Ray Reed @wackywabbit correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Oweh really more or less disappointed this year, correct?

disappointed would be putting it very politely, yes.

He was an actual liability on the field. Look at his snap counts as our OLB group got more healthy throughout the year:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/O/OwehJa00/fantasy/2022

This guy was playing damn near 90% of snaps early on - did nothing.

Then as the season went on, his snap counts decreased every game until it was down in the 30% range - still did nothing.

I think the only time we saw him actually do something were the last 2 games of the season (CIN and CIN in the playoffs). He was objectively horrible this year.

[MWil23]

7 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

disappointed would be putting it very politely, yes.

He was an actual liability on the field. Look at his snap counts as our OLB group got more healthy throughout the year:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/O/OwehJa00/fantasy/2022

This guy was playing damn near 90% of snaps early on - did nothing.

Then as the season went on, his snap counts decreased every game until it was down in the 30% range - still did nothing.

I think the only time we saw him actually do something were the last 2 games of the season (CIN and CIN in the playoffs). He was objectively horrible this year.

I was trying to be kind and objective and essentially get you to say everything that I believed him to be coming out but didn't want to be a trolling Browns fan.

I loved to hate Oweh as a prospect when he was at Penn State and did a fist pump when Baltimore drafted him, unlike when you guys got Dobbins or Kyle Hamilton when I collectively groaned.

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Scoundrel said:

You didn’t tag me but yes he did 

 

7 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

disappointed would be putting it very politely, yes.

He was an actual liability on the field. Look at his snap counts as our OLB group got more healthy throughout the year:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/O/OwehJa00/fantasy/2022

This guy was playing damn near 90% of snaps early on - did nothing.

Then as the season went on, his snap counts decreased every game until it was down in the 30% range - still did nothing.

I think the only time we saw him actually do something were the last 2 games of the season (CIN and CIN in the playoffs). He was objectively horrible this year.

Well, being right on Oweh is probably gonna make me sit tight on LVN as well.

[goldfishwars]

19 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Yeah, I think his best value is that he could potentially be a nice swing DT/DE...so a run stopping DE or even having some potential 5 Tech value with his raw strength and length, with maybe kicking inside on 3rd Downs as an interior rusher.

It's definitely possible, but there's not really a lot of evidence he's good against the run. That's a skill-set which goes beyond being able to bull-rush tackles on the outside. He definitely looks very powerful when he's got a head of steam. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

5 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

I was trying to be kind and objective and essentially get you to say everything that I believed him to be coming out but didn't want to be a trolling Browns fan.

I loved to hate Oweh as a prospect when he was at Penn State and did a fist pump when Baltimore drafted him, unlike when you guys got Dobbins or Kyle Hamilton when I collectively groaned.

idk how this guy went from really good his rookie year to just a total waste of a roster space this year. Scheme change did nothing for anyone else but it apparently made Oweh go from promising and upcoming superstar to "get this guy off the field NOW".

Can't set the edge. Has no edge moves. Looks slow and unathletic in space. Literally there was nothing he did well until the end of the year when they started rushing him on the inside the last 2-3 games and FINALLY we started to see him actually utilize some pass rushing moves against guards and create pressures.

He's not totally a lost cause, but this year was definitely rough.

[MWil23]

1 minute ago, goldfishwars said:

It's definitely possible, but there's not really a lot of evidence he's good against the run. That's a skill-set which goes beyond being able to bull-rush tackles on the outside. He definitely looks very powerful when he's got a head of steam. 

IMO the evidence is that I personally think he's technically sound and was a nice scheme fit in that very good rush defense. I'm not saying that he's going to be a "can't miss" guy, for example, but I'm generally higher on guys coming from those Power 5 "meat and potatoes" programs than many others.

For example(s):

I love Iowa TEs and interior OL.

I love Wisconsin OL and Notre Dame OL and TE

...the list goes on, but that's just me.

Can he still be a bust/are there still questions? Absolutely.

I will also say this:

Van Ness was at least productive in college, racking up 7 and 6 sacks in his final two years, unlike Oweh who had 0 sacks his final year at PSU and 7 total sacks in 3 years.

[MWil23]

3 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

idk how this guy went from really good his rookie year to just a total waste of a roster space this year. Scheme change did nothing for anyone else but it apparently made Oweh go from promising and upcoming superstar to "get this guy off the field NOW".

Can't set the edge. Has no edge moves. Looks slow and unathletic in space. Literally there was nothing he did well until the end of the year when they started rushing him on the inside the last 2-3 games and FINALLY we started to see him actually utilize some pass rushing moves against guards and create pressures.

He's not totally a lost cause, but this year was definitely rough.

I think his athletic ability was always there and even in college you saw he flashed with more or less some edge ability. Once teams in the NFL...just like college (I swear some dudes don't watch tape in the NFL from college guys) figured out he can basically "dip and rush" and that's it, they were able to embarrass him, just like B1G teams did against him.

I think he's a guy that you draft in like the 3rd round who can have some value as a situational 3rd down rusher from the inside or outside in a NASCAR type package, but certainly not a first 2 round value guy.