Future of the HC Position

[PAtexansFAN_99]

I can see that. The Pitre pick was pretty clearly not to stick him in two deep all day long. No matter what happens these last few games, if they fire Lovie, I'll be ok with it.

[ET80]

4 hours ago, PAtexansFAN_99 said:

The Texans have picked #1 three times in franchise history. 1 QB, 2 D Linemen. The QB was a  bust, both D Linemen were either the correct pick, or very close to what would have been the correct pick in hindsight.

This doesn’t really tell us anything. No two drafts are identical - you can just as easily draft the next Solomon Thomas or Vernon Gholston as you are likely to draft an Aaron Donald or Myles Garrett.

By this sort of logic, the Texans should completely ignore DT Jalen Carter because we once drafted DT Amobi Okoye with a top 10 pick… and he proceeded to completely bust. See how much sense that makes? Literally none at all.

Bluntly speaking - it seems as if you’re only concerned with a QB busting. Other positions bust too. What happens if Jalen Carter turns into another Okoye or Glenn Dorsey? What if Will Anderson turns out to be another Dion Jordan or Barkevious Mingo? What if Quentin Johnson turns into another John Ross or Kevin White? The only thing being discussed is “what if [insert QB here] busts” as if the other players are automatically assumed to be Von Miller upon arrival - and quite frankly, it’s getting frustrating. All of them could be busts for all we know, so let’s stop assuming going non-QB somehow mitigates risk in any capacity.

4 hours ago, PAtexansFAN_99 said:

Also, in case you're thinking a defensive linemen simply can't elevate a team to the same degree that a quarterback can, may I remind you of #99. Have we not all seen DTs destroy entire games this year (*see Kenyon Green getting his *** whupped repeatedly)

Players like JJ Watt are INCREDIBLY rare - that’s why there have only been like, 5-6 of them all time. If you’re banking on finding another one, you might as well wait until the 6th round to draft a QB because of Tom Brady.

(As an aside: those other players - Reggie White, Bruce Smith - they didn’t really make championship games/Super Bowls without Brett Favre or Jim Kelly, so even those rare guys need a franchise QB to compete for championships, which is the goal here).

Conversely, every single dynasty known to the league had a franchise QB, beating other franchises QBs along the way. Outside of Brady, Russell Wilson and Kurt Warner, pretty much all of them were drafted in the 1st round - both Manning brothers, Joe Flacco, Ben Roethlensberger, Aaron Rodgers, Pat Mahomes, Matt Stafford among others. Heck… Donald (a DL who is on par with Watt in terms of taking over games) wasn’t making Super Bowls without two different QBs taken 1.1 (Goff and Stafford). Watt himself was stymied by Mahomes in his last playoff run.

This is a QB driven league. Period. End of story. Teams have tried repeatedly to build the other way around, and only Brady and Warner succeeded in a lasting fashion - and those two were arguably the dumbest bit of luck (accompanied by a HoF coach, no less).

4 hours ago, PAtexansFAN_99 said:

Is it possible that not taking Jalen Carter is what's actually "overthinking it"?

No - because it’s possible that Jalen Carter is Marcel Dareus waiting to happen. Nobody can really say otherwise, because it happens pretty frequently in the NFL for ALL positions, not just QB. 

The upside of hitting on a QB far outweighs the upside of hitting on any other position - because the one defining trait of just about every team that won a SB in the modern era is above average QB play. So if I’m going to take a chance, I’m taking that chance on the upside of a QB - especially when you have one that simply hasn’t failed at any point in his career, a guy who has performed at the absolute highest level to this point with no discernible flaws outside of his height…

…which is, bluntly speaking - a nonsense response if you actually watch him play. Sure, let’s pass on the 6’ 0” QB for the 243lb edge rusher who weighs less than Derrick Henry and gives up over 60-80lbs to every LT he’ll face in the NFL (not including guys like Mekhi Becton, who outweighs him by a whopping 121lbs or Trent Brown, who outweighs him by 137lbs). Yeah, that makes total sense, screw size at a position where physical engagement with a 320lb OT happens on every single down. 

No talk about THAT size discrepancy. There are OL that literally outweigh him by 100+ lbs, yet nobody seems to register that as a disadvantage for him; But coming in at 6' 0" is some death rattle for Bryce.

Somebody - please explain that to me.

4 hours ago, PAtexansFAN_99 said:

I feel like as a Texans fan I've developed  a weird complex where it's like more satisfying to win with an average QB.

Let’s be real here - since inception, the Texans have lost more than won, so you (and I) really don’t know what winning is, and we sure as hell don’t know what winning in the playoffs is. I can all but guarantee you that a 14-3 season with a Super Bowl berth will far outweigh anything a Texans’ fan has ever experienced to this point. You don’t understand what that feels like for this team, so how do you know this mediocrity we’re currently in is somehow feels BETTER?

To draw a parallel - I’ve been a Houston Astros fan my whole life, back in the Biggio/Bagwell/Caminiti years (my first sports jersey was a “gold star” Bagwell Astros jersey from the mid 90s). I loved those teams, loved watching Shane Reynolds and Jose Lima and Mike Hampton - heck, I could tell you about the dredges of Carlos Lee and Wandy Rodriguez in the late '00/early ‘10. The Astros was a fun and scrappy team, but they fell short every year. 

Now? Those teams are ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to me in comparison to the current Houston Astros, the squad who is winning pennants and making the World Series more often than not. Picking between a doormat with the occasional bout of relevancy, or the perennial powerhouse that everyone circles on their calendar? Yeah, give me the powerhouse 200 times out of 100. I'd much rather a future that looks like New England's past than a future that looks like Detroit or Cleveland's past (or... our own past).

Give me the winner, every time. No questions asked - and in this league, that starts with QB.

4 hours ago, PAtexansFAN_99 said:

Schaub was pretty damn good, but he was never really considered to be a "franchise QB". Maybe he was and I'm misremembering. But yea, we didn't used to need one. 

You understand that this is one of six NFL teams to not make a Championship game, right? We’re a picture of futility, the Houston Texans are not historically remembered as a good franchise - so saying they didn’t used to need one is pretty much saying “hey, we’re content with sucking at football…” Because that’s how history remembers this franchise.

So looking at yesterday doesn’t really resonate with a warm and fuzzy feeling for me. It reminds me that empires in this league were built and sustained while our franchise sorta floundered in the mud.

4 hours ago, PAtexansFAN_99 said:

Also, after watching that Dallas game I'm honestly not 100% sure that anyone's getting fired. That gameplan by Pep Hamilton was a god damn work of art.

… wait, WHAT!?

What about the other 12 games this season? You understand that Pep has been the OC for the *entire* season, right? You can’t judge a guy on one game towards the end of the season, against a team that - let’s be real here - most likely overlooked the Texans (and with good reason, too - the Texans are literally the worst team in football, and Dallas is pretty much playoff bound with a chance to win their division if things go right).

Even the Mona Lisa looks and smells like **** if you pile up a bunch of fecal matter around it. One good game doesn’t forgive the 12 games of pure incompetence that preceded it.

4 hours ago, PAtexansFAN_99 said:

And, if we run it back and we're bad to worse next year, we get Caleb Williams! (I know this is contradictory to my previous post about not getting a franchise QB, but come on man. That guy is a friggin superhero).

Ok - so follow me on this: If you’re picking 1.1 in 2024, then each pick you made in 2023 failed. (Stingley, Green, Pitre, Metchie and Pierce probably failed, too) Carter, Anderson, Johnson - doesn’t matter. If these players are good, you’ll inadvertently win a few games you didn’t win this year, because your new guys and your 2023 guys should provide a boost to your overall team - and if they don’t, then this is an abject failure at a rebuild. If they are good, Stingley, Pitre and whoever taken at 1.1 should improve this defense to a much better place than this year, which should be enough to win 1-3 more games (especially when you’re not facing the AFC West and NFC East). It’s completely feasible this team goes 4-13 and picks #4… which means you miss on the Caleb Williams lottery and you’re hoping that Quinn Ewers or Spencer Rattler is going to elevate this team (or you continue punting on the position... I guess we can hold out for Arch Manning at this rate).

Ultimately, improvements at key spots (which is what your picks should provide when you pick em - you don’t pick someone with the intention of them failing) will take you out of the running for 1.1 (and Williams IS a superstar, so nobody picking at 1.1 is trading down until you significantly overpay - which is a BoB for Tunsil move). 

Doing this is basically saying you’re content with losing, which is going to scare away any legitimate Coach or free agent. Establishing such a negative “we’ll get em next year” culture is how teams stay bad.

[PAtexansFAN_99]

1 hour ago, ET80 said:

Bluntly speaking - it seems as if you’re only concerned with a QB busting. Other positions bust too. What happens if Jalen Carter turns into another Okoye or Glenn Dorsey? What if Will Anderson turns out to be another Dion Jordan or Barkevious Mingo? What if Quentin Johnson turns into another John Ross or Kevin White? The only thing being discussed is “what if [insert QB here] busts” as if the other players are automatically assumed to be Von Miller upon arrival - and quite frankly, it’s getting frustrating. All of them could be busts for all we know, so let’s stop assuming going non-QB somehow mitigates risk in any capacity.

The argument I made in the post you're referring to is simply that Jalen Carter is a better football player than Bryce Young, not that he's less likely to bust because of what position he plays. 

 

1 hour ago, ET80 said:

Players like JJ Watt are INCREDIBLY rare - that’s why there have only been like, 5-6 of them all time. If you’re banking on finding another one, you might as well wait until the 6th round to draft a QB because of Tom Brady.

I'm not saying he's going to be the greatest defensive lineman of all time, I'm just saying Jeffrey Simmons single handedly ruined our gameplan this year, as did both Johnathan Allen and DaRon Payne, and a bunch of other ones. If you've got someone knocking the opposing guard on their *** all day long, that can win you games. All I'm saying. You're acting like nothing but QB matters. 

 

1 hour ago, ET80 said:

You understand that this is one of six NFL teams to not make a Championship game, right? We’re a picture of futility, the Houston Texans are not historically remembered as a good franchise - so saying they didn’t used to need one is pretty much saying “hey, we’re content with sucking at football…” Because that’s how history remembers this franchise.

So looking at yesterday doesn’t really resonate with a warm and fuzzy feeling for me. It reminds me that empires in this league were built and sustained while our franchise sorta floundered in the mud.

We're not NOWHERE NEAR playing in a championship game right now. The point I'm trying to make is we've worked our way up from bottom of the league to relevant before. THAT is where we're at right now, and we can definitely use a similar method in order to climb back up there. I honestly don't think that there's any other way. It's a team game. We're going to need a bunch of good football players just to get ourselves back in the mix, not just a QB, and when we've got those players, hypothetically, a less than "franchise" QB should be able to keep us competitive until we've got an opportunity to add one. You've got to crawl before you can walk, and the Texans have gone from crawling to jogging before. Maybe not a full out sprint, but that's several steps away. Give me 9-7, 10-6 football teams. Yes mutha****in please.

 

1 hour ago, ET80 said:

One good game doesn’t forgive the 12 games of pure incompetence that preceded it.

I'm not saying it does, but I'm saying that in the event that we get similar performances every week for the rest of the season, that'll be pretty impressive. It's understandable that it took a little while to figure out that the best iteration of this team's offense is a 2 QB system featuring Jeff Driskel lol. 

 

1 hour ago, ET80 said:

Doing this is basically saying you’re content with losing

I'm just saying this, if we bring back these coaches there's 2 possible scenarios.

1. We improve

2. We're looking at a similar situation as this season

If we improve, good, that's what we want, but the likelihood that we don't is higher than if we were to clean house right now regardless of which college players we add to the roster. Are Stingley, Green, and Pitre busts because of the Texans record this season? Of course they aren't.

In the scenario I'm talking about where we bring back these coaches, we draft good players again, and we either improve bc of the continuity, talent upgrades, etc, or we suck bc Lovie/Pep simply aren't competitive strategists. We can accumulate talent, tank via subpar coaching, and wind up with a roster loaded with talent and Caleb Williams for whoever we finally hire to be the real HC in 2024.

Also like, you've got to at least allow for some discussion man. Any opinion other than Bryce Young at 1.1 can't be written off as illogical. There's a lot of good football players in this year's draft. There's a lot of possibilities for us right now. 

[ET80]

52 minutes ago, PAtexansFAN_99 said:

The argument I made in the post you're referring to is simply that Jalen Carter is a better football player than Bryce Young, not that he's less likely to bust because of what position he plays. 

This is where positional value has to play into it - you can't really grade two similar players at different positions; Who is better, Aaron Donald or Pat Mahomes? There is no apples to apples comparison here. To 32 teams in the NFL, a franchise QB will always supplant EVERY other position, including DT. It's why the pay scales are so different, because it's a QB driven league.

Let's try this - why is Carter better than Young?

52 minutes ago, PAtexansFAN_99 said:

I'm not saying he's going to be the greatest defensive lineman of all time, I'm just saying Jeffrey Simmons single handedly ruined our gameplan this year, as did both Johnathan Allen and DaRon Payne, and a bunch of other ones. If you've got someone knocking the opposing guard on their *** all day long, that can win you games. All I'm saying. You're acting like nothing but QB matters. 

What can win you MORE games than a disruptive DT? A QB who can put the offense into high gear. As stated earlier, why did it take a franchise QB to elevate the Rams? Aaron Donald is the best DT in football, he's knocked opposing DOUBLE TEAMS on their *** all day long. Yet, it wasn't until Goff and Stafford showed up that the Rams really started to win (and it's a lack of Stafford that has them losing right now - had they not traded this first rounder, they'd be picking #2 right now, and that's with a healthy Donald).

Other positions matter, but look at the Rams this season and tell me that the most important position isn't QB. Stafford on a decline is the difference between a Super Bowl W and the #2 pick in the draft.

52 minutes ago, PAtexansFAN_99 said:

We're not NOWHERE NEAR playing in a championship game right now. The point I'm trying to make is we've worked our way up from bottom of the league to relevant before. THAT is where we're at right now, and we can definitely use a similar method in order to climb back up there. I honestly don't think that there's any other way.

You and I have vastly different definitions of relevant. By my standards... the Texans have never been relevant. They've won games, sure. They've won playoff games, OK. But they've never been a top 4 team at the end of the season, they never really posed a threat to anyone outside of the division. 

Rebuilding on a foundation that's proven to not work is not my idea of building. We've done this with Kubiak, we've done this with BoB - and both didn't end the way we wanted, lot of sub par years with the occasional 10+ win season and the inevitable loss in the playoffs to better managed franchises. 

Personally, I'm done with that rinse and repeat cycle of 8/9/10 win seasons. Give me Cincinnati going all in on Joe Burrow and building the team around him during his growth, give me Josh Allen improving while a defense is built and a #1 WR is bought from Minnesota, give me Tua suddenly going Super Saiyan with the addition of Tyreek Hill and Jalen Waddle, give me Jalen Hurts suddenly going ballistic after bringing in Devonta Smith and AJ Brown.

This doggie paddle in the 8-9/9-8 section of the pool is not my style anymore. Swing for the fences, and build a team that will rally around a young QB, not thrust a QB onto a pre-set team that might not fit his skillset (Danny Jones, Baker Mayfield for example). 

52 minutes ago, PAtexansFAN_99 said:

I'm not saying it does, but I'm saying that in the event that we get similar performances every week for the rest of the season, that'll be pretty impressive.

It's really not - this time of year, everyone knows who they are for the most part. Teams are either preserving for their playoff run or trying new things out and counting down the days until the end of the season. There are countless times where a bad team that's already eliminated from the playoffs will win 2-3 games out of nowhere - heck, this was a calling card of many of the Gary Kubiak 8-8 seasons, they'd suddenly win a few games in a row and people would attribute that to "turning a corner" only to start next season 1-4 or something like that. 

Good teams overlook bad teams all the time - and the Texans are a team that is constantly overlooked. Suddenly coaching above that to an opponent who doesn't take you seriously isn't a reflection of the coaching, it's a reflection of how seriously other teams take us.

52 minutes ago, PAtexansFAN_99 said:

We can accumulate talent, tank via subpar coaching, and wind up with a roster loaded with talent and Caleb Williams for whoever we finally hire to be the real HC in 2024.

If you somehow can guarantee that you end up with 1.1 in '24, I'd be more inclined to hear this - but the truth is, football is a very random sport where the unexpected happens literally every week. I mean, the defending Super Bowl champs are the 2nd worst team in football right now. 

To get Williams for certain, you HAVE to be the worst team in football. Not 4-13, not 3-15 - you have to be the worst. You cannot have any fluke wins, you can't have a K plunk an upright on a GW FG for the opponent, you can't have a fumble from the opponent inside their own 5 yard line, you can't have a QB get hurt when you're playing them - a lot has to go right to win a football game, and a lot has to go right to intentionally get the #1 pick...

...And if you don't think losing of that magnitude doesn't negativity impact the players on the roster, I'm here to tell you it does. Chad Ocho Cinco used to call it the drip - bad outcomes lead to bad habits, bad habits lead to bad situations - and you can't just reverse it, it sticks with you.

52 minutes ago, PAtexansFAN_99 said:

Also like, you've got to at least allow for some discussion man. Any opinion other than Bryce Young at 1.1 can't be written off as illogical. There's a lot of good football players in this year's draft. There's a lot of possibilities for us right now. 

I've probably talked this subject with you moreso than anyone else in this sub - and in all of our interactions, you've never told me what you think of Bryce Young. You've talked about roster construction, you've talked about trading down, you've talked about WRs and DL and OT and coaching staff and Davis Mills starting next season and everything... BUT Bryce Young.

I'm trying to have the conversation, but you're not really giving me anything to talk about specific to the player. 

In a vacuum - what do you think of Bryce Young? How much of him have you watched? What are your impressions of him as a QB? Forget everything else, what do you think of him?

[PAtexansFAN_99]

4 hours ago, ET80 said:

why is Carter better than Young?

Just like, planet theory. Like there's only so many human beings alive at any particular point in time that possess that kind of size/athleticism combo. I feel like when you're drafting that high it's a lot about just like, rarity. Rare talent. I'll get into my opinion on Young at the end.

4 hours ago, ET80 said:

Yet, it wasn't until Goff and Stafford showed up that the Rams really started to win

I'd argue that Goff isn't really the caliber player you claim to be looking for, and that that team going to the Super Bowl is an awesome example of exactly what I'm talking about. I'd also argue that they probably wouldn't have been able to draw Stafford (an ACTUAL top tier QB talent) unless they were set up the way they were. Like, if you build it they will come type of thing. If you're set up to win, if you're "a quarterback away", we could get whichever good QB becomes available whenever that happens. IIRC Peyton Manning actually wanted to play for the Texans after the Colts released him and Kubiak turned him down (then won a Superbowl with him in denver what the ******* ****). But, something like that, or trading for Matt Stafford, or Brady to the Bucs, becomes possible if you have a good football team.

4 hours ago, ET80 said:

By my standards... the Texans have never been relevant.

Fair enough. I'd still argue that whatever you want to call the peak of the Kubiak/OB era, that would be a massive step in the right direction and we'll be lucky to sniff that type of success before 2025. I think, like it or not it's going to be baby steps. This season reminds me of 2006 with no Andre Johnson. 

 

4 hours ago, ET80 said:

It's really not - this time of year, everyone knows who they are for the most part.

Again, fair enough. And the fact that the Cowboys weren't taking us seriously is likely true as well. This is just like, such a talent deficient offensive roster. Jordan Akins is legitimately our best pass catcher in my opinion. Even if it's because they're underestimating us, to me, its still impressive to ever be able to produce like we did yesterday against that good of a defense with these guys we have. It, at the very least, makes me wonder what Hamilton might be capable of with a truly talented offensive roster. 

4 hours ago, ET80 said:

If you somehow can guarantee that you end up with 1.1 in '24, I'd be more inclined to hear this - but the truth is, football is a very random sport where the unexpected happens literally every week. I mean, the defending Super Bowl champs are the 2nd worst team in football right now. 

To get Williams for certain, you HAVE to be the worst team in football. Not 4-13, not 3-15 - you have to be the worst. You cannot have any fluke wins, you can't have a K plunk an upright on a GW FG for the opponent, you can't have a fumble from the opponent inside their own 5 yard line, you can't have a QB get hurt when you're playing them - a lot has to go right to win a football game, and a lot has to go right to intentionally get the #1 pick...

...And if you don't think losing of that magnitude doesn't negativity impact the players on the roster, I'm here to tell you it does. Chad Ocho Cinco used to call it the drip - bad outcomes lead to bad habits, bad habits lead to bad situations - and you can't just reverse it, it sticks with you.

Prior to this season I was probably like the most anti-tank person you'd ever meet. Even now, deep down, I want the Texans to win out. I'm just really saying that like, if we retain Smith it'll start multiple timelines like in that one Community episode, and in one of those timelines we are definitely the worst team in football again, and in the other one we might be on to something with these coaches. But yea, I agree. Losing is bad, players probably don't love it. I would like to win.

 

4 hours ago, ET80 said:

In a vacuum - what do you think of Bryce Young? How much of him have you watched? What are your impressions of him as a QB? Forget everything else, what do you think of him?

I've watched a few highlight reels and a few game tapes. I like him, I do. Pocket presence/feel, mobility, accuracy, decision making (I don't really know but it looks pretty good to me) all outstanding. I've said this before, but he reminds me a lot of Watson (Watson was legitimately a top 5 QB but banged his head against the same ceiling as Schaub and Yates in terms of postseason success). I think you were right when you said that if he were 4 or 5 inches taller there wouldn't even be any question, it'd be a full on tank for Bryce situation. I think he's great, clearly the best QB this year. If we pick him I'll love it. If we pick Jalen Carter I will also love it, that's all I'm really saying. 

 

 

[ET80]

17 hours ago, PAtexansFAN_99 said:

Just like, planet theory. 

This might be a surprise to you, but I totally understand Planet Theory and subscribe to it full time - it's one of the reasons I was high on Jordan Davis last draft.

The only thing that supercedes it to me? Scarcity at QB. Under a similar "Planet Theory" lens - realistically, there are less than 25 people on the planet who can play QB very well at this level ("very well" being above average). If there were more, teams wouldn't have to rely on a Davis Mills/Jeff Driskel sandwich, or musical chairs with Sam Darnold, PJ Walker and Baker Mayfield, or trading for a washed up Matt Ryan or Carson Wentz, or banking on Mitch Trubisky/Kenny Pickett. All 32 teams would have a serviceable QB - but that's not the case, teams consistently trot out sub-standard QBs every week.

So - my belief - if you have the chance to draft a QB with elite traits (more on this later) you do it. Even at the expense of the twitched up, violent DT.

17 hours ago, PAtexansFAN_99 said:

I'd argue that Goff isn't really the caliber player you claim to be looking for, and that that team going to the Super Bowl is an awesome example of exactly what I'm talking about. I'd also argue that they probably wouldn't have been able to draw Stafford (an ACTUAL top tier QB talent) unless they were set up the way they were. Like, if you build it they will come type of thing.

Let's also address the elephant in the room - the Rams are ran by an offensive wunderkind who actually turned Goff into a serviceable, Super Bowl QB (and that SB year - 4,600 yards, 32/12 - that was about as good as Deshaun Watson's best season, and we were quick to crown Watson as a franchise guy).

In addition, the Rams are incredible at hitting on 3-7th round picks; They found the best WR in football in the 3rd round, they manned their secondary and OL with day 2/day 3 picks - this allows them to burn premium picks on trades for elite guys such as Jalen Ramsey, Von Miller and Stafford. (Their GM has actually bought in on the "eff them picks" joke that's big on Twitter). 

Yet - despite ALL of these inherent advantages that other teams simply can't replicate - they still needed a franchise QB to get past the hump. That should illustrate what I'm saying; They built that team in such a unique way, a way that qnobody else could build a team (we don't hit the way they hit on drafts and trades). But even then, the difference between success and failure was a proven franchise QB, not a kinda/sorta guy at QB. 

17 hours ago, PAtexansFAN_99 said:

If you're set up to win, if you're "a quarterback away", we could get whichever good QB becomes available whenever that happens. IIRC Peyton Manning actually wanted to play for the Texans after the Colts released him and Kubiak turned him down (then won a Superbowl with him in denver what the ******* ****). But, something like that, or trading for Matt Stafford, or Brady to the Bucs, becomes possible if you have a good football team.

Two things on this:

- So much had to go right to make these jumps to "we're a vet QB away". Guys like Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, Tristan Wirfs, Vita Vea had to hit, guys like Leonard Fournette had to be released, guys like Gronk had to come out of retirement. Strokes of luck - but without those elements, Brady isn't winning (specifically Gronk and Fournette, who was a machine in the post season).

- So much can go wrong if you go this way and bring in the wrong QB. This time last year, Russell Wilson to Denver meant a SB run, but it turns out that Russ might not be good; Given the draft picks and contract paid to Russ, Denver might be in a death rattle that would make our last three years seem like a Rams resurgence. No picks, limited cap space and Russell Wilson basically stuck at QB with no financial out. 

That's one thing to consider - if you build the team and get to "one QB away" and you pick the WRONG QB, the results are disasterous. This sets a franchise back worse than anything BoB did - George Paton and John Elway (a Denver legend) are probably getting fired for such a miscalculated effort, and the groups who have to clean this up are going to have to spend a few years in what we've been through. 

Now, if you pick the wrong QB right now? Yeah, it's not good - but you still retain resources to redirect and cover up that mistake, much like how the Jets can miss on Zach Wilson and still have a fighting chance over the next few years. Sure, that #2 pick busting stings a lot, but it's not a death rattle - you can feasibly bring in a Jimmy Garoppolo or [insert vet QB that isn't going to lose you games] and maintain competent football while you either rehab Wilson, or look to future years to get your guy. 

17 hours ago, PAtexansFAN_99 said:

It, at the very least, makes me wonder what Hamilton might be capable of with a truly talented offensive roster. 

If this was his first attempt at being an OC, I'd agree - but he once was OC for Andrew Luck, TY Hilton and that Colts offense and couldn't get it out of neutral. Luck was a generational QB but never helmed a top 5 offense. That's on Pep.

He's had the opportunity before - maybe not with the Texans, but he had a strong unit he couldn't fire up. I don't feel good after this showing (as "good" as it was) because I have multiple instances where he underachieved. I don't round up in this situation, if you made a bunch of 50s in class and then you pull out a bunch of 75/80s towards the end of class, it brings your average up - bit it's still a failing grade.

17 hours ago, PAtexansFAN_99 said:

I think he's great, clearly the best QB this year. If we pick him I'll love it.

I'm sincerely glad to heard we're on a same page with this - really I am. 

Going into this season, I wasn't very high on Young - I was following a narrative, the lack of size and the immense talent at Alabama was inflating his value. I think you can even find a post or two where I said he wasn't as good as his press clippings would indicate.

Then, I saw him in the Tennessee game - where he completely kept Alabama in a game where they were completely outclassed by their opponent. That game should have been much worse for Alabama, but it wasn't, simply because Young was making incredible play after play. I then started watching more of him  (past games and current games) and I saw that sort of performance wasn't really unexpected from him. This wasn't a typical Alabama team, where there are multiple first round guys through the two deep - Alabama had to hit the transfer portal just to field a competitive team, their #1 WR and #1 RB were both portal guys who haven't really been part of the Nick Saban education process. Only constant was Young, and his play kept 'Bama going.

When I really evaluate QBs, I look at multiple aspects - but three things stand out as near unteachable traits/abilities, abilities that separate good QBs from elite QBs:

- Arm talent (not just arm strength). The ability and wherewithal to use touch, to throw with velocity into a tight window, the ability to put air under a pass to a deep target, the ability to throw from multiple arm slots (overhead, sidearm, three quarter) the ability to consistently throw off base, the ability to throw accurately on the run, etc.

- Football IQ: Reading a defense pre and post snap, using his head and body to open up passing lanes, throwing guys into spaces in the coverage, creating passing lanes within the pocket, checking guys into the best spot, seeing where trouble areas are coming from and doing something about it, etc.

- Spatial awareness: The ability to feel things out as the play is progressing; Not just the internal clock every QB needs, but understanding where the escape routes and hot reads are and understanding when and how to go to those when needed. Feeling the rush, feeling the routes, feeling the coverage... all while the play is collapsing.

His arm talent is elite. His football IQ is great. His spatial awareness? It's generational.

If you can find a guy who can clock in as great on those three things? That's a first rounder regardless of collegiate career. If you can find a guy with any of those things in elite status, that's top 10 worthy. If there's a guy who has one of those three talents as generational, that's a guy you take top 3-5. 

Young hits all three of these benchmarks. And that's not considering his elite athleticism (reportedly 4.4 40 speed with fantastic quickness to pair up with it) his work ethic and leadership abilities (of which he's been praised by teammates and coaches alike). He's the best QB to come from Alabama per many people (and right now, 2/3rd of the top MVP candidates this season are former Alabama QBs). 

I get what you're saying on building the team and Jalen Carter as a difference maker - and I don't think I'd be terribly upset if Carter or Anderson was the pick. This being said... I think Young is a guy who turns fortunes for some lucky franchise.

[PAtexansFAN_99]

[lumberjackchris]

I have a pretty reliable source that says Meco will not be interviewing for the job and the the Texans will 100% be looking for an offensive minded HC. 

[ET80]

36 minutes ago, lumberjackchris said:

I have a pretty reliable source that says Meco will not be interviewing for the job and the the Texans will 100% be looking for an offensive minded HC. 

Not very shocking, ‘Meco was a pipe dream. This hire is going to define Nick Caserio, so I am pretty certain it’s someone from New England.

[lumberjackchris]

19 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Not very shocking, ‘Meco was a pipe dream. This hire is going to define Nick Caserio, so I am pretty certain it’s someone from New England.

I want nothing to do with anything offensive coming out of NE.

 

But who I do like is Lions OC Ben Johnson 

[ET80]

14 minutes ago, lumberjackchris said:

I want nothing to do with anything offensive coming out of NE.

 

But who I do like is Lions OC Ben Johnson 

As much as I want to close the door on the idea, don’t rule out Josh McCown…

[lumberjackchris]

2 hours ago, ET80 said:

As much as I want to close the door on the idea, don’t rule out Josh McCown…

I’m all for him being on the staff, but man that’s such a reach to be HC. Idk if Caserio wants to hitch himself to that wagon. But he if he does, then hold onto your butts!

[OzzyTexan]

Tough game today vs Jags. As it stands right now, I really haven't got much idea how Houston will proceed once the season is over. As much as I like Lovie as a person it doesn't change how his team has performed this season. If it was my decision I'd be moving on from Lovie and going in a new direction with a young QB. I could see a scenario where Houston keeps Lovie but it's a tough sell for fans after this year.

If they do, make a change at HC I would really prefer to have an experienced HC brought in. Some names I like are Sean Payton (obviously), Dan Quinn, and Jim Harbaugh. 

Sean Payton- Top coach available but I think it is least likely in my opinion. I don't think Houston would be an attractive job for him and we'd probably end up having to give up a 1st or 2nd from the saints to make it happen. He would be able to turn the franchise around. Best case scenario for Texans, but highly doubt he would come Houston. 

Dan Quinn- Done a great job in Dallas and had a decent run in Atlanta. Culture guy who is an upgrade over Lovie in my opinion. I would need him to bring a strong offensive staff but I believe he is likely to work best with Caserio (who I don't think is losing his job).

Jim Harbaugh- My favorite option. He has taken over rebuilds before and had success. Obviously, the contract with Michigan has to be worked out and won't be easy to get that sorted. Also how interested he'd be to work with Caserio is a big question mark. Harbaugh is my guy because I really feel he would bring that physical brand of football to Houston... something Houston hasn't had for a while. 

I don't know what Houston will do this offseason but changes are coming. I do like some of the less experienced Coordinator options but it's more of a risk....

 

Another thought/Side note:   Any chance Lovie is back and Houston tries to bring in McCown as OC as a trail run for possibly taking over after next season??

[ET80]

1 hour ago, OzzyTexan said:

Another thought/Side note:   Any chance Lovie is back and Houston tries to bring in McCown as OC as a trail run for possibly taking over after next season??

Going into today, I actually had Lovie with (soon to be former) Arizona HC Kliff Kingsbury as OC/HC in waiting (former Patriots player, so Caserio has a dossier on him from then to lean on) with Miles Smith getting elevated to DC. After next season… Kingsbury ascends to HC, with Miles as DC and Lovie as the special advisor role that was previously held by Romeo Crennell. After today? No, it’s a clean slate. Lovie was getting this consideration due to the improved play in the last three weeks - today was a regression to the Texans we know in the current era.

The one name I really want is DeMeco Ryans, but I think Ryans is the top name on many lists. The Eagles have Jonathan Gannon and Shane Steichen, wouldn’t mind to get in on those. Eric Bienenemy is always in the interview cycle, would be nice if he's the guy. I don’t think Sean Payton would want to come here, to be honest - I think he wants complete control over the roster (something Caserio isn’t going to be too thrilled about) and he's going to have a say in where he lands. Jim Harbaugh has been constantly mentioned as coming back to the league, but I think he’s enjoying that allure and using it to draw in bigger checks from Michigan.

On the note of college guys - David Shaw left Stanford. He’s always been able to compete at a very high level at a school that has a much higher stand of education than your typical Power 5 school. His offenses have always been described as very similar to pro concepts  - not based in spread and read options. I don’t know if he’s done with football or not, but he’s somebody I’d cut a big check for. He’s another guy who can bring in a culture of accountability and “do your job” mindset to everyone.

If it’s not one of the coordinators, I’d look into Shaw.

[Pastor Dillon]

Coaching and the team is so important. If Brock Purdy can do what he’s doing, the. You can’t tell me Purdy is that good.