HoF Semifinalists Announced

[LaserFocus]

37 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

In 2009 he was tied for 9th in yards and tied for 28th in TDs

In 2003 he was 9th in yards and tied for 4th in TDs with 5 other players

In 2002 he was 4th in yards and 2nd in TDs

In 2001 he was 25th in yards and 45th in TDs

 

He has 1 top 5 year. 

In 2011 Jordy was 9th in yards and 3rd in TDs

In 2014 Jordy was 4th in yards and tied for 2nd in TDs.

In 2016 Jordy was 6th in yards and 1st in TDs.

 

 

Just going by peer to peer comparisons, Nelson has a better peak 3 seasons than Ward does. 

And Jordy Nelson played with Aaron Rodgers, while Ward did not play with a HOF caliber QB until 2004. Big difference.

[Sugashane]

6 minutes ago, LaserFocus said:

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3. Where was Randy Moss in SB 42? We can't blame Ward for having talented teammates, any more than we can blame Jerry Rice for having Roger Craig in the backfield.

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And Jordy Nelson played with Aaron Rodgers, while Ward did not play with a HOF caliber QB until 2004. Big difference.

 

So don't judge him for having talented players unless Ward is the one at a disadvantage. Gotcha.

 

Do you ever get tired of your own BS? lol
 

[LaserFocus]

24 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

1. Wards career numbers don't come close to true HoF caliber WRs. Let's just look at him vs Bruce and Owens. I'll leave Moss out since you asked me not to bring him in.

Bruce

• Started 201 games and appeared in 223

• 1,024 catches for 15,208 yards

• 91 touchdowns

• 14.9 yards per reception

• Eight seasons of 1,000 yards or more

• Four seasons of 1,200 yards or more

• Four Pro Bowl appearances

Owens

• Started 201 games and appeared in 219

• 15,934 yards receiving

• 153 touchdowns

• 14.8 yards per catch

• Nine seasons of 1,000 yards or more

• Five seasons of 1,200 yards or more

• Six Pro Bowl appearances

Ward

• Started 190 games and appeared in 217

• 1,000 catches for 12,083 yards

• 12.1 yards per catch

• 85 touchdowns

• Six seasons of 1,000 yards or more

• One season of 1,200 yards or more

• Four Pro Bowl appearances

 

But hey, great blocker so lets not judge the WR as a WR... like Moss would as well.

2. Yes we could, and with most WRs worthy of the Hall, Ward would lose by comparison, as noted above.

3. With 5 catches for 62 yards and a TD while being constantly double teamed. You know, that thing that rarely ever happened to Ward by comparison.

4. Point noted, but Ward wasn't nearly as good a WR as the 3 I've mentioned here, or numerous others waiting.

 

 

Never claimed Ward was an inner circle WR, but the totality of his career is HOF worthy. Ward's lifetime TDs and postseason play stack up favorably to WRs already enshrined, and being the all time leader for a storied franchise cannot be discounted. Bruce and Owens are both HOF caliber, as well. This isn't a discussion on who was better. It should be noted Bruce and Owens had better QB play early in their careers.  Look, the crux of the matter is the fact there is no template for a HOF receiver, it's not all about the numbers.

[LaserFocus]

1 minute ago, Sugashane said:

Now

 

So don't judge him for having talented players unless Ward is the one at a disadvantage. Gotcha.

 

So you ever get tired of your own BS? lol
 

No, there's no contradiction at all. My comment about Ward was in the context that somehow his contribution to those wins was minimized by having a HOF RB. 

[RedRider]

56 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

When in the same class of eligibility it proves he should be sitting and waiting behind them. Regardless of how you cut it, he is an inferior WR to them.

He wanted to mention QBs Ward had to play with, who were better than Chris Miller who Bruce was able to still get 119 catches, 1781 yards, and 13 TDs with. He did better that year with a garbage QB than Ward ever did in a single season with HoF QB.

Yes, because Ben was a HoF QB when Ward was playing, especially during his prime. Quite the narrative.

 

Ward and Bruce's stats are close enough to the point where other things are taken into consideration: post-season play, leadership, and non-receiving abilities for example. Ward excels in all of these. Not to say that Bruce doesn't or that I'd take Ward over Bruce: my point is that Ward has a HoF resume (not this year, but perhaps soon), as much as FF doesn't like him.

[LaserFocus]

11 minutes ago, RedRider said:

Yes, because Ben was a HoF QB when Ward was playing, especially during his prime. Quite the narrative.

 

Ward and Bruce's stats are close enough to the point where other things are taken into consideration: post-season play, leadership, and non-receiving abilities for example. Ward excels in all of these. Not to say that Bruce doesn't or that I'd take Ward over Bruce: my point is that Ward has a HoF resume, as much as FF doesn't like him.

Good post. I think the problem we have is the sabermetric approach of baseball seeping into football analysis, and the influence of fantasy football is on full display. The sabermetric philosophy minimizes winning, believing it's as much a product of luck as skill. It also believes numbers are the only solution to everything, and context isn't relevant. The sabermetric group hates a player like Joe Kapp, who led the Vikings to the 1969 NFL title. Kapp's numbers weren't spectacular, but he was a tough leader, and a great player for Minnesota that season.

[Jetzger]

25 minutes ago, LaserFocus said:

Good post. I think the problem we have is the sabermetric approach of baseball seeping into football analysis, and the influence of fantasy football is on full display. The sabermetric philosophy minimizes winning, believing it's as much a product of luck as skill. It also believes numbers are the only solution to everything, and context isn't relevant. The sabermetric group hates a player like Joe Kapp, who led the Vikings to the 1969 NFL title. Kapp's numbers weren't spectacular, but he was a tough leader, and a great player for Minnesota that season.

He's also a player who isn't anywhere near the HOF, so if that's the best comp you can come up with, I'm not sure how that proves Ward's case.

And Kapp didn't lead them anywhere.  The Purple People Eaters did.  As soon as that defense couldn't completely dominate the opposing offense, they lost.

[LaserFocus]

29 minutes ago, Jetzger said:

He's also a player who isn't anywhere near the HOF, so if that's the best comp you can come up with, I'm not sure how that proves Ward's case.

And Kapp didn't lead them anywhere.  The Purple People Eaters did.  As soon as that defense couldn't completely dominate the opposing offense, they lost.

We'll see about that, the diversity of Ward's qualifications will eventually prevail. And with other star WRs retiring early over the next decade or so, that helps Ward's case. And yes, Joe Kapp was the team leader of that 1969 Vikings team. It wasn't all about the defense. This is the sabermetric mentality I was talking about, Kapp's toughness, leadership, along with his skill led that team. The post-Kapp Vikings would not return to the SB until January of 1974 with Fran Tarkenton.

 

[AlexGreen#20]

1 hour ago, LaserFocus said:

Good post. I think the problem we have is the sabermetric approach of baseball seeping into football analysis, and the influence of fantasy football is on full display. The sabermetric philosophy minimizes winning, believing it's as much a product of luck as skill. It also believes numbers are the only solution to everything, and context isn't relevant. The sabermetric group hates a player like Joe Kapp, who led the Vikings to the 1969 NFL title. Kapp's numbers weren't spectacular, but he was a tough leader, and a great player for Minnesota that season.

No . . . the "sabermetric" crowd as you choose to label them, understands that winning is a team accomplishment. Hines Ward isn't any less of a player if he wastes away in Cleveland. 

[TecmoSuperJoe]

2 hours ago, RedRider said:

Yes, because Ben was a HoF QB when Ward was playing, especially during his prime. Quite the narrative.

 

Ward and Bruce's stats are close enough to the point where other things are taken into consideration: post-season play, leadership, and non-receiving abilities for example. Ward excels in all of these. Not to say that Bruce doesn't or that I'd take Ward over Bruce: my point is that Ward has a HoF resume (not this year, but perhaps soon), as much as FF doesn't like him.

Wait, what year did Ben start playing like a HOF player?

Also, I'm not sure how Bruce and Wards stats are similar. Bruce has only 24 more catches than Ward yet has over 3000 more yards. Bruce averaged 14.9 yards a catch compared to Ward's 12.1. Bruce also had 68.2 yards per game compared to Ward's 55.7 yards per game. Ward also never had a year close to what Bruce did in 1995. They are fairly close in touchdowns with Bruce having 91 and Ward 85. That is about it though. Doesn't seem neck and neck to me at all.

[Jetzger]

1 hour ago, LaserFocus said:

We'll see about that, the diversity of Ward's qualifications will eventually prevail. And with other star WRs retiring early over the next decade or so, that helps Ward's case. And yes, Joe Kapp was the team leader of that 1969 Vikings team. It wasn't all about the defense. This is the sabermetric mentality I was talking about, Kapp's toughness, leadership, along with his skill led that team. The post-Kapp Vikings would not return to the SB until January of 1974 with Fran Tarkenton.

 

Yes, that amazing skill that let him go 3-9 for 45 yards and 3 INTs and the Vikings still win by 38.  Teams thought so highly of his winning mentality and leadership that nobody offered him a contract until the Boston Patriots picked him up in September after the Super Bowl appearance, where he proceeded to suck.

 

Yes, I agree Ward will eventually get in.  That isn't the argument here.

[JaguarCrazy2832]

I love how there’s this double standard that Ward didn't get to play with an elite qb his whole career but then his playoff numbers are brought in. Like how does he have so great numbers if he didnt have someone throwing to him?

[LaserFocus]

1 hour ago, JaguarCrazy2832 said:

I love how there’s this double standard that Ward didn't get to play with an elite qb his whole career but then his playoff numbers are brought in. Like how does he have so great numbers if he didnt have someone throwing to him?

There's no double standard whatsoever. Anytime we talk about HOF candidates, the postseason must be considered along with everything else.

[LaserFocus]

2 hours ago, Jetzger said:

Yes, that amazing skill that let him go 3-9 for 45 yards and 3 INTs and the Vikings still win by 38.  Teams thought so highly of his winning mentality and leadership that nobody offered him a contract until the Boston Patriots picked him up in September after the Super Bowl appearance, where he proceeded to suck.

 

Yes, I agree Ward will eventually get in.  That isn't the argument here.

All I can say is listen to those players on the 1969 Vikings, they've talked about Kapp in many interviews over the years. Doesn't matter what happened with the 1970 Patriots.

[LaserFocus]

2 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

Wait, what year did Ben start playing like a HOF player?

Also, I'm not sure how Bruce and Wards stats are similar. Bruce has only 24 more catches than Ward yet has over 3000 more yards. Bruce averaged 14.9 yards a catch compared to Ward's 12.1. Bruce also had 68.2 yards per game compared to Ward's 55.7 yards per game. Ward also never had a year close to what Bruce did in 1995. They are fairly close in touchdowns with Bruce having 91 and Ward 85. That is about it though. Doesn't seem neck and neck to me at all.

I'm a supporter of Bruce for Canton, so this is a change of topic. Kurt Warner and Marc Bulger were a massive upgrade than Kordell Stewart and Tommy Maddox. In terms of when Ben matured into a HOF QB, maybe it was 2007. That was the year after the near fatal motorcycle accident, when the Steelers made the mistake of rushing him back in 2006.