Head coaching candidates thread

[broncos67]

Denver needs to hire someone that will maximize (not fix) Russ in the short term, with an eye towards the future if it doesn't work out. If I were a candidate, the first thing I'd be asking is what my commitment to Russ is, and, if I have to play him in 2023 because of cap reasons, I want assurances I'm not losing my job.

If I'm someone like Steichen, Reich, etc... maybe the job is appealing in that you immediately get an established, successful veteran and if he's washed, you get to build your team. 

There are definitely things with respect to Russ that can't be fixed. My question is how injured he actually is. I do think Russ has some injuries not being disclosed or more serious than has been let on. Typically QBs don't fall off as fast as he did (though it does happen).

I think the right plan is to play Russ in 2023 and sign a backup with some ability to push him if he doesn't improve. 2024 and beyond is the time to start thinking about what's next, IMO. The cap charge becomes more palatable at that point.

[AnAngryAmerican]

2 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

I would say Steichen's work with Herbert really impresses.    I would also say it's highly unlikely he'll come here, he'll have his pick of QB's to work with.

Yeah. Herbert would have been a total bust without the great coaching of a Shane Steichen. There are no skills whatsoever with which to work. He's a poor mans Case Keenum. 

[Broncofan]

20 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

Yeah. Herbert would have been a total bust without the great coaching of a Shane Steichen. There are no skills whatsoever with which to work. He's a poor mans Case Keenum. 

You know that's not the point - Herbert's mechanical flaws cited in college and his work he needed to do that had him fall past Tua, were clearly fixed after his time at Oregon - and he did it in his rookie year, under Steichen's tutelage.  The same guy who's overseen Hurts' mechanical & reading improvements (although I agree with @grizmo78 that the competition faced gives pause if he can do it vs. elite D's).   If anything, the current OC is clearly limiting Herbert's ceiling.

Come on, you're better than straw men arguments.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Broncofan

[paul-mac]

We are about to embark on our 7th head coaching search in 14 years. The 14 years before that, we literally had one head coach the entire time. That’s completely unsustainable. It’s absolutely imperative that the next head coach is around for more than a year or two. 
 

George Paton has four years left on his contract. I think we give the new guy a four year deal and attach them at the hip. 
 

2023 and 2024 can be used to try and salvage Wilson. Either by fixing him from the ground up, or just trying to build an elite defense and run game and have him be a game manager type QB. 
 

2025 we can easily move on from Wilson if he hasn’t improved, so Paton and the new HC will have two more years with the next QB.

 

If things still haven’t improved by the end of the 2026 season then it’s time to completely clean house and fire everyone including Paton. 

[Broncofan]

29 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I read several accounts that Flores was a nightmare to work for and to work with in Miami; he was demanding, uncompromising and very difficult; like all BB castoffs he thought he was the smartest guy in the room, it was his way or the highway and he played favorites with the staff and the team. That doesn't excuse whatever the problems were with Ross, who seems as shady as owners get, but if he, Flores, created or at least fomented a toxic culture (and he wouldn't be the first BB assistant to do, in fact he'd be the first if he didn't create a toxic culture) that has to be a hard pass. Mike McDaniel, who is … quirky, certainly seems to have made things better down there after Flores' stink left the building. And anything that goes well in Pittsburgh, which is most things, go back to Mike Tomlin and the iron-clad culture he built that even Antonio Brown couldn't screw up. 

Patriot Way doesn't work. So stop it. They've said it about every. single. hire. from that tree. Remember how Joe Judge was going to be different? Or Mac in his second stint as a HC with the Raiders? What about Daboll who is 1-4-1 in his last six games? Brian Flores is not Mike Tomlin. So stop. 

 

Brian Daboll is working with a NYG team that's bottom 10 in actual talent, and has gotten the most out of them.   He's also overseen the transformation of Josh Allen, who credits him with his ascent.   But sure, cherrypick the last 5 games - which one has more credibility?   I think you know the answer there.

The BB effect is very legitimate to question for sure - but guys who succeed when they're away from BB, that's a different kettle of fish.   It's not like saying Jerrod Mayo, or Bill O'Brien, or Matt Patricia - guys who've never played outside of BB's shadow and succeeded - are the answer.     Guys who succeed elsewhere earn their stripes here.    Daboll & Flores deserve credit for what they've done away from BB.     I'm surprised you can't appreciate the nuance there. 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Broncofan

[paul-mac]

1 hour ago, grizmo78 said:

My early top 3 would be:

Ken Dorsey - Would be a first time HC but he is in charge of the Buffalo offense while also having served as QB coach for Newton and the Panthers prior to working with Josh Allen. Concern would be limited background only having worked under two Defensive head coaches (Ron Rivera and McDermott)

Brian Callahan - I pointed out his coaching career last go around and now has had continued success with the Bengals. 

Shane Steichen - Worked with Phillip Rivers and Herbert before his work with Hurts. He's the one i'm most skeptical on given how easy the Eagles schedule has been this past year. 

All offensive coaches that I would hope would keep the defensive staff together. 

Yeah great idea, let’s hire the latest hot coordinator. Because that worked really well with McDaniels/Joseph/Fangio/Hackett. 
 

The last three coaches that had any success at all in Denver were Gary Kubiak, John Fox and Mike Shanahan. Each of them had been an NFL HC before coming to Dove Valley and the next guy should be no different. 

[grizmo78]

4 minutes ago, paul-mac said:

Yeah great idea, let’s hire the latest hot coordinator. Because that worked really well with McDaniels/Joseph/Fangio/Hackett. 
 

The last three coaches that had any success at all in Denver were Gary Kubiak, John Fox and Mike Shanahan. Each of them had been an NFL HC before coming to Dove Valley and the next guy should be no different. 

Kyle Shannahan, McVay, both Harbaugh's, Sean Payton, Zac Taylor, Mike Tomlin, Nick Sirianni, Kevin O'Connel, all had success as a first time head coaches (among many others). No reason to blindly limit your candidate pool based on recency bias. 

Based on your logic, you'd rather pursue Matt Nagy, Jason Garrett, or Marvin Lewis because "they've been an NFL HC" before... How is that working out for Ron Rivera's Commanders, or Todd Bowles Bucs, or Lovie Smith's Texans?

There are good and bad candidates in both pools, interview the best candidates, be open and cast a wide net, and reel in the best fish. 

[broncos67]

6 minutes ago, grizmo78 said:

Kyle Shannahan, McVay, both Harbaugh's, Sean Payton, Zac Taylor, Mike Tomlin, Nick Sirianni, Kevin O'Connel, all had success as a first time head coaches (among many others). No reason to blindly limit your candidate pool based on recency bias. 

Based on your logic, you'd rather pursue Matt Nagy, Jason Garrett, or Marvin Lewis because "they've been an NFL HC" before... How is that working out for Ron Rivera's Commanders, or Todd Bowles Bucs, or Lovie Smith's Texans?

There are good and bad candidates in both pools, interview the best candidates, be open and cast a wide net, and reel in the best fish. 

I would also add - we need to be realistic about what the short and long term goals are as a franchise and hire accordingly. Part of Denver's challenge post SB victory was the idea we could win while rebuilding. All that did was leave us in no man's land with a bunch of suboptimal decisions being made. Can't have that for the next hire. It's unsustainable. Denver fans need to be more patient, but the completely inept offenses of the last 7 years are making that beyond difficult.

[AnAngryAmerican]

42 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

You know that's not the point - Herbert's mechanical flaws cited in college and his work he needed to do that had him fall past Tua, were clearly fixed after his time at Oregon - and he did it in his rookie year, under Steichen's tutelage.  The same guy who's overseen Hurts' mechanical & reading improvements (although I agree with @grizmo78 that the competition faced gives pause if he can do it vs. elite D's).   If anything, the current OC is clearly limiting Herbert's ceiling.

Come on, you're better than straw men arguments.

Look I’m fine if the hire is Steichen, we could do worse. Let’s not credit him 100% for Herbert who is a unicorn talent, and the media hypes Tua for reasons unbeknownst. And yes in LA Herbert is limited by his OC. But the Walmarts think the next HC will “fix Russ” and I don’t think he’s fixable from a mechanical standpoint at a broken down 34 the way Herbert was as an elite physical freak who was 22. 

[Broncofan]

17 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

Look I’m fine if the hire is Steichen, we could do worse. Let’s not credit him 100% for Herbert who is a unicorn talent, and the media hypes Tua for reasons unbeknownst. And yes in LA Herbert is limited by his OC. But the Walmarts think the next HC will “fix Russ” and I don’t think he’s fixable from a mechanical standpoint at a broken down 34 the way Herbert was as an elite physical freak who was 22. 

Yeah, no one is thinking that the next HC is a lock hire meant to fix Russ - I'll hold out some hope he can be fixed to being average, but as I said, I wouldn't want the hire to be solely for that reason.   Our next HC has to be someone we can be optimistic on for life after Russ - it can't be a 1-2 year fix as the goal.    I'd be excited to get Steichen because I think he could groom the next QB even if Russ fails.   Sadly, I don't think we'll get the opportunity, though - that was the OP made, FWIW.

Frankly, even the ownership likely realizes this in private - if they're really interested in guys like Jim Harbaugh, that's a move to hire a guy with enough clout on his own, he dictates to Russ how things will go down - and not simply cater to him, as Hackett really did.    Now, if they just hire a SEA 2015 redux - more likely to fail IMO.   Time will tell - but I don't think any of the fans here think that's a good path to take.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Broncofan

[AnAngryAmerican]

38 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Brian Daboll is working with a NYG team that's bottom 10 in actual talent, and has gotten the most out of them.   He's also overseen the transformation of Josh Allen, who credits him with his ascent.   But sure, cherrypick the last 5 games - which one has more credibility?   I think you know the answer there.

The BB effect is very legitimate to question for sure - but guys who succeed when they're away from BB, that's a different kettle of fish.   It's not like saying Jerrod Mayo, or Bill O'Brien, or Matt Patricia - guys who've never played outside of BB's shadow and succeeded - are the answer.     Guys who succeed elsewhere earn their stripes here.    Daboll & Flores deserve credit for what they've done away from BB.     I'm surprised you can't appreciate the nuance there. 

Daboll has done two things - use a finally healthy Saquon Barkley and get Daniel Jones to limit turnovers. He has multiple first round picks who have performed well.

And ok Josh Allen credits Daboll as a good coach, great, the man is also a generational talent, not in like Herbert. You’re using freak QBs who’ve enjoyed success under some coach/coordinator to justify their worthiness as HCs here. And Daboll isn’t even a candidate he always has a job! I mean WTF. 

When Daboll becomes the first BB assistant to win a Super Bowl I’ll take my medicine on that. Let’s just see the Giants make the playoffs before you go anointing I’m the next Bill Walsh. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

26 minutes ago, grizmo78 said:

Kyle Shannahan, McVay, both Harbaugh's, Sean Payton, Zac Taylor, Mike Tomlin, Nick Sirianni, Kevin O'Connel, all had success as a first time head coaches (among many others). No reason to blindly limit your candidate pool based on recency bias. 

Based on your logic, you'd rather pursue Matt Nagy, Jason Garrett, or Marvin Lewis because "they've been an NFL HC" before... How is that working out for Ron Rivera's Commanders, or Todd Bowles Bucs, or Lovie Smith's Texans?

There are good and bad candidates in both pools, interview the best candidates, be open and cast a wide net, and reel in the best fish. 

This is fair but look at common traits among the successful and contrast with the unsuccessful. 

Siriani and O’Connell don’t count as neither has won anything of note or been at it long enough. 

McVay, Payton, Tomlin and John Harbaugh have rings, Kyle, Taylor and Jim Harbaugh have been to SBs. 

Ask yourself, what do they have in common versus the rest of the failed hot coordinators. You’ll find your answer. 

[Broncofan]

16 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

Daboll has done two things - use a finally healthy Saquon Barkley and get Daniel Jones to limit turnovers. He has multiple first round picks who have performed well.

And ok Josh Allen credits Daboll as a good coach, great, the man is also a generational talent, not in like Herbert. You’re using freak QBs who’ve enjoyed success under some coach/coordinator to justify their worthiness as HCs here. And Daboll isn’t even a candidate he always has a job! I mean WTF. 

When Daboll becomes the first BB assistant to win a Super Bowl I’ll take my medicine on that. Let’s just see the Giants make the playoffs before you go anointing I’m the next Bill Walsh. 

Danny Jones played with other coaches and the O did nothing for 3 full seasons.   Daboll has him playing well, far better than he's ever played before.    And FWIW, they win either game left and they're in the playoffs, in a year they were predicted to go 6-11 or 7-10, depending on the books (and yes weak competition, but that Vegas prediction was based on that, too).

I get it, BB coaches - beware.  I wholeheartedly agree with the principle - in general.   But when they've done something real outside of BB - there are exceptions that prove the rule.     Daboll, and I would submit, Flores, are both good coaches, and likely would make (or already make, in Daboll's case), good HC's.  You don't need to be the next Bill Walsh to make that statement (again with the straw dog statements, come on).    

BB-tree coaches should get a TON of skepticism, until they do it on their own.   But there are some guys who actually are OK, like Daboll (and I'd say Flores - vs. the many, many, many failures) - esp. if they show success away from BB (the key differentiating feature).   Both statements can be true.  It doesn't have to be binary.   Until Flores is a serious candidate, though, this is kinda moot - so I'll leave it at that.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Broncofan

[paul-mac]

34 minutes ago, grizmo78 said:

Kyle Shannahan, McVay, both Harbaugh's, Sean Payton, Zac Taylor, Mike Tomlin, Nick Sirianni, Kevin O'Connel, all had success as a first time head coaches (among many others). No reason to blindly limit your candidate pool based on recency bias. 

Based on your logic, you'd rather pursue Matt Nagy, Jason Garrett, or Marvin Lewis because "they've been an NFL HC" before... How is that working out for Ron Rivera's Commanders, or Todd Bowles Bucs, or Lovie Smith's Texans?

There are good and bad candidates in both pools, interview the best candidates, be open and cast a wide net, and reel in the best fish. 

Rivera and Bowles both have an excellent chance to be coaching playoff football this January. We will be on our 4th head coach since we last played a playoff game next year. Smith I’ll give you but I’d argue he was handed the worst roster in the NFL and did about as well as he could with it.

 

Look at the job Flores did in Miami to set up the current tenure with McDaniel. Or even look at the job John Fox did with us a decade ago. Or what Dan Campbell is doing with the Lions now or Doug Pederson down in Jacksonville. Sometimes the culture of a franchise is completely broken and you need to just bring in a no nonsense guy to sort the culture out and return you to a place of respect before you hire the next guy to put you over the hump.

 

I think hot coordinators are great at taking an average team and making them into a contender, but much less successful at improving the fortunes of a dumpster fire. Unfortunately, we have become that dumpster fire. It follows that we need that no nonsense guy to get us winning some football games again and then maybe in a few years we look at the hot coordinator. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

3 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Danny Jones played with other coaches and the O did nothing for 3 full seasons.   Daboll has him playing well, far better than he's ever played before.   

I get it, BB coaches - beware.  But when they've done something real outside of BB - there are exceptions that prove the rule.     Daboll, and I would submit, Flores, are both good coaches, and likely would make (or already make, in Daboll's case), good HC's.  You don't need to be the next Bill Walsh to make that statement (again with the straw dog statements, come on).    

BB-tree coaches should get a TON of skepticism, until they do it on their own.   But there are some guys who actually are OK, like Daboll (and I'd say Flores - vs. the many, many, many failures) - esp. if they show success away from BB (the key differentiating feature).   Both statements can be true.  It doesn't have to be binary.   Until Flores is a serious candidate, though, this is kinda moot - so I'll leave it at that.

Daboll hasn’t coached one full season yet and Jones’ former HC was Joe Judge, another Patriot Way guy (who made everyone miserable) but also laid the foundation for Patriot Way Daboll to come in and not upset that “culture.” 

Look you want to argue Brian Flores will buck the trend and be a great HC here, fine. Miami was a ****show and now they’re a playoff contender. Blame Ross, say it wasn’t Flores’ fault and McDaniel is a paper Tiger, fine.