Bigbear72 Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 21 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: I will say this as plainly as I can, there is not one single Free Agent we could sign in 2023 that would make me shy away from any prospect we deem the best on the board in the Top 75 picks of this Draft. We could sign DreMont Jones, and if its Jalen Carter on the board at #4, Im still taking Carter. We could pick up Taylor/McGlinchey/McGary and if we end up at like 9-14 with Paris Johnson as the clear best (or even later on in the 2nd with Darnell Taylor Available) and Im still taking them We need the most young, ascending talent that we can assemble. We are coming off the bounce of a rebuild, were not some entrenched team that has just a few holes to fill. Yeah, that's great...in the 1st maybe even the 2nd round. But if Poles were to allocate all of his resources in free agency to the defensive line and then use all of his draft capital on the defensive line while ignoring OL, WR, LB it would simply be stupid. One absolutely affects the other. To what extent will be determined by varying degrees based upon position and positional value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 2 hours ago, AZBearsFan said: I don’t love him at 8 either, but c’mon, Skoronski is a far better prospect than Whitehair. How though? What stand out feature of his game is much better than Whitehair’s was coming out of College and what growth potential does he have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 2 hours ago, StLunatic88 said: Why? Ive seen more than one of you put this out there. Free Agency should have next to ZERO impact on what we are doing in the draft That is pie in the sky thinking…everyone would love to take BPA at all times but with the amount of needs we have there is no way we don’t have to target different things in each…for example say we sign two big money OL in FA we aren’t then trading down and taking another one in the 1st round even if they are the best talent in the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 41 minutes ago, Bigbear72 said: Yeah, that's great...in the 1st maybe even the 2nd round. But if Poles were to allocate all of his resources in free agency to the defensive line and then use all of his draft capital on the defensive line while ignoring OL, WR, LB it would simply be stupid. One absolutely affects the other. To what extent will be determined by varying degrees based upon position and positional value. So if a Keion White, or Zach Harrison or Isaiah McGuire falls in the draft, but we signed Yannick Ngakoue, But didnt get Jawaan Taylor, you would advocate reaching for a TJ Bass? Just because we didnt get the plug in Top Line starter in Free Agency? Im sorry that is bad strategy, and we are right back into the same argument of last offseason. Reaching at any point in the draft by any team for a "need" is bad, doing it with a team that is dangerously undertalented is indefensible Most of the Free Agents you sign away from other teams are 2 year guys at best. Some will; be longer, plenty will be less. The guys you draft should be part of your roster for 4-10 years. Draft Talent, Not Position Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 2 minutes ago, Madmike90 said: That is pie in the sky thinking…everyone would love to take BPA at all times but with the amount of needs we have there is no way we don’t have to target different things in each…for example say we sign two big money OL in FA we aren’t then trading down and taking another one in the 1st round even if they are the best talent in the board. If we have so many needs (so little talent) we should be taking the BEST talent every chance we can And in your scenario, we clearly have atleast 4 spots on the OL that can be upgraded, so even if we have 2 Free Agents, that still leves 2 more big holes we have (and the one non-hole is an Injury Risk) so Id gladly grab the OL prospect and figure it out on the field. If we Trade down to 13, and we have already signed J.Taylor and Pocic (yuck) and the best player on the board by far is Paris Johnson, Im still ABSOLUTELY taking him. Im not reaching for Quention Johnston or Nolan Smith, just because they are in more of a "Need" spot. Because OL is still a Huge Need. Now if we are sitting there with Paris Johnson and Myles Murphy on the board, and we have them grouped together in a tier, then sure, Im OK taking Murphy over him, but reaching just because we have some maybes weve added on the OL is not a reason not to take the best prospect availabe. It should always be decided by Best Prospect, then premier position, then and only then need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbear72 Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, StLunatic88 said: So if a Keion White, or Zach Harrison or Isaiah McGuire falls in the draft, but we signed Yannick Ngakoue, But didnt get Jawaan Taylor, you would advocate reaching for a TJ Bass? Just because we didnt get the plug in Top Line starter in Free Agency? Im sorry that is bad strategy, and we are right back into the same argument of last offseason. Reaching at any point in the draft by any team for a "need" is bad, doing it with a team that is dangerously undertalented is indefensible Most of the Free Agents you sign away from other teams are 2 year guys at best. Some will; be longer, plenty will be less. The guys you draft should be part of your roster for 4-10 years. Draft Talent, Not Position No, what I have said is that those things do matter. It doesn't have to be extreme one way or another. The situation is, in fact fluid. But to say that one should'nt affect another is flawed. There are obvious exception just like anything else in life but a need is a need and resources are finite, therefore you have to take those things into consideration. To say that you wouldn't take it into consideration is flawed. Edited February 24, 2023 by Bigbear72 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 1 minute ago, Bigbear72 said: No, what I have said is that those things do matter. It doesn't have to be extreme one way or another. The situation is, in fact fluid. But to say that one should affect another is flawed. There are obvious exception just like anything else in life but a need is a need and resources are finite, therefore you have to take those things into consideration. To say that you wouldn't take it into consideration is flawed. The only flaw is prioritizing need over talent in the Draft. Thats how you end up with Busts. No one has ever complained that we have "too much talent" even at one position group. Because they all play, unless its the QB. But we always hear about passing on talent because a team tried to fill a hole (aka Velus Jones) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbear72 Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 3 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: The only flaw is prioritizing need over talent in the Draft. Thats how you end up with Busts. No one has ever complained that we have "too much talent" even at one position group. Because they all play, unless its the QB. But we always hear about passing on talent because a team tried to fill a hole (aka Velus Jones) Who has remotely suggested passing up talent? Or suggested that we make drastic reaches? That's okay. You got it boss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 15 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: If we have so many needs (so little talent) we should be taking the BEST talent every chance we can And in your scenario, we clearly have atleast 4 spots on the OL that can be upgraded, so even if we have 2 Free Agents, that still leves 2 more big holes we have (and the one non-hole is an Injury Risk) so Id gladly grab the OL prospect and figure it out on the field. If we Trade down to 13, and we have already signed J.Taylor and Pocic (yuck) and the best player on the board by far is Paris Johnson, Im still ABSOLUTELY taking him. Im not reaching for Quention Johnston or Nolan Smith, just because they are in more of a "Need" spot. Because OL is still a Huge Need. Now if we are sitting there with Paris Johnson and Myles Murphy on the board, and we have them grouped together in a tier, then sure, Im OK taking Murphy over him, but reaching just because we have some maybes weve added on the OL is not a reason not to take the best prospect availabe. It should always be decided by Best Prospect, then premier position, then and only then need. Yeah if we have signed 2 FA OL and have not done anything at WR or DE don’t expect us not to take that position. Again I like the thinking but Poles & co would get destroyed for not address either spot early if they have done nothing in FA to sure it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 12 minutes ago, Bigbear72 said: Who has remotely suggested passing up talent? Or suggested that we make drastic reaches? That's okay. You got it boss. Picking based upon position is exactly that, if you pass on the more talented player to pick someone who fits a perceived immediate need it is a reach, I dont know how you are not comprehending that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 1 minute ago, StLunatic88 said: Picking based upon position is exactly that, if you pass on the more talented player to pick someone who fits a perceived immediate need it is a reach, I dont know how you are not comprehending that I think you are misunderstand what many of us are saying…no one is saying pass up a 1st round talent at WR for a 2nd round talent at DE…we are saying if you have a 1st round similar grade on both positions then need has to factor in as does positional value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 5 minutes ago, Madmike90 said: Yeah if we have signed 2 FA OL and have not done anything at WR or DE don’t expect us not to take that position. Again I like the thinking but Poles & co would get destroyed for not address either spot early if they have done nothing in FA to sure it up. Why? There are 5 OL spots compared to 2 DE spots and 3 WR spots (2 of which are already filled for 2023) And what exactly has Ryan Poles done so far to make you think he cares at all what the outsiders (fans ands media) have to say about how he is going about this? And Ill repeat it once again, he shouldnt because those voices can barely find their way out of a paper bag when it comes to building an NFL franchise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 2 minutes ago, Madmike90 said: I think you are misunderstand what many of us are saying…no one is saying pass up a 1st round talent at WR for a 2nd round talent at DE…we are saying if you have a 1st round similar grade on both positions then need has to factor in as does positional value. And I still made it quite clear, not one single Free Agent of 2023 would dissuade me from picking any single Prospect in the 2023 NFL Draft, especially not early (Top 75 picks, probably even deeper) because we are going to end up signing 1 maybe 2, outside of chance of 3 guys who will be with this team for 3 years and be major impact guys that entire time. The Draft picks we end up with in the Top 75 should all be looked at as 4 years minimum, if not long term major pieces to this roster. We dont have the Talent level on this roster (even after Free Agency) to be approaching it any other way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbear72 Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 11 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: Picking based upon position is exactly that, if you pass on the more talented player to pick someone who fits a perceived immediate need it is a reach, I dont know how you are not comprehending that Sure JAF...I mean Lunatic, you got it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 7 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: And I still made it quite clear, not one single Free Agent of 2023 would dissuade me from picking any single Prospect in the 2023 NFL Draft, especially not early (Top 75 picks, probably even deeper) because we are going to end up signing 1 maybe 2, outside of chance of 3 guys who will be with this team for 3 years and be major impact guys that entire time. The Draft picks we end up with in the Top 75 should all be looked at as 4 years minimum, if not long term major pieces to this roster. We dont have the Talent level on this roster (even after Free Agency) to be approaching it any other way If that’s what you want to believe man go ahead, just don’t get your hopes up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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