Who should be held accountable?

[MNPackfan32]

*See's people have been posting in the draft thread*

 

*Gets excited*

 

*See's it's just people arguing about Ted*

 

*Disappointed but not surprised*

 

 

 

Back to the 2018 draft, I inject Josh Allen film my veins. The good is so good, the bad is so, so, so bad. It's like Jay Cutler found crack rocks. 

[Dubz41]

4 hours ago, cooters22 said:

The Viqueens have built a total stud defense in just a few seasons with Rhodes, Barr and Harrison-Smith off the top of my head, which makes me think that could just as easily have been us. I don't think they've been drafthing that much earlier than us recently either. Kansas City  has been drafting near us recently and have landed Kelce, Poe, Marcus Peters, Hunt and Tyreek Hill. Seattle has been king for drafting in the NFL for awhile.  Past  drafts netted Earl Thomas, Kam Chancellor, Russell Okung and Golden Tate, laying the foundation for their 2013 Super Bowl team. Chancellor and Sherman were 5th-round picks, and they landed QB Russell Wilson in the 3rd round. Their recent drafts haven't been quite as good though. Pittsburgh getting Watt and Schuster-Smith this year one pick after we picked is looking disgustingly good. So they picked behind us. They've always been pretty good at drafting. And finally off the top of my head I'd have to say New England only because they are at the top every single season and it can't all be coaching. I know they drafted Hightower after our pick a few years back. Without doing any research and totally off the top of my head I'd have to say these 5. I do think Thompson is good, not great. But the injuries and using nothing besides the draft has been crippling us. And our real recent drafts have been crap. 

The bolded part made me blow cola out of my nose!  I'll give you Rhodes and Smith, but Barr is very inconsistant (you probably only see his highlights).  Before you think they draft so well remember that Linval Joseph makes that defense work and he was a FA.  Please include draft picks Christian Ponder, Corderelle Patterson and Trey Waynes in there along with Matt Kalil (now with Panthers). If you like their defense you should know that they scheme their defense to their personnel.  They utilize the strengths of their players.  They don't sit around thinking up new gimmick defenses like Psycho or Nitro and spend all preseason patting themselves on the back. They utilize the strengths of their players.

[AlexGreen#20]

8 hours ago, StinkySauce said:

I hear people say this all the time.  I'm not a student of the game, but I know many of you are.  Is it true that the scheme is too complex?  Is it significantly more complex than other successful schemes around the NFL?

It's harder for sure. There are more pressure and coverage looks, and more calls and tradeoffs that are by extension run with it.

Truthfully though, I think the bigger problem with this defense is it doesn't have any tolerance for a lack of ability in the secondary. The breakpoints are too extreme to make due with mediocre talent at CB and Safety. 

[CWood21]

7 hours ago, cooters22 said:

I do think Thompson is good, not great. But the injuries and using nothing besides the draft has been crippling us. And our real recent drafts have been crap. 

And using context helps significantly.  Your entire argument for the Vikings' draft success is essentially hinged into 3 years: 2012-2014.  Over the course of those three years, they drafted Harrison Smith, Xavier Rhodes, and Anthony Barr.  What you failed to mention was that they also invested first round picks into Matt Kalil, Sharrif Floyd, Cordarelle Patterson, and Anthony Barr.  Of those 7 first round picks they had over that time period, they got two "elite" starters and a really good borderline elite starter.  I'll ignore Teddy Bridgewater since he's an injured player, but going 50% in the first round isn't exactly this overwhelming success.  It'd be similar to using 2009-2011 to evaluated TT.  If you're going to look at the good with a team, you need to look at the bad as well.

[CWood21]

4 hours ago, TheOnlyThing said:

I know the "Ted is an 'elite' drafter" is a common refrain for the Ted fans on this board and elsewhere, but is there any evidence to support it?

Just once, I'd love to see you put some work into your argument instead of wanting everyone to do the work for you.

[CWood21]

3 hours ago, TheOnlyThing said:

So the "evidence" that Ted is an elite drafter is your opinion that there is "undeniable talent all over this roster." OK then.

Honestly, it's about as valid as your argument is.  His claim is as strong as yours since neither one of you provided anything to support your arguments.

[MantyWrestler]

2 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

It's harder for sure. There are more pressure and coverage looks, and more calls and tradeoffs that are by extension run with it.

Truthfully though, I think the bigger problem with this defense is it doesn't have any tolerance for a lack of ability in the secondary. The breakpoints are too extreme to make due with mediocre talent at CB and Safety. 

Then it’s a bad scheme. You can’t always count on having 4-5 studs back there. 

[MantyWrestler]

1 hour ago, CWood21 said:

And using context helps significantly.  Your entire argument for the Vikings' draft success is essentially hinged into 3 years: 2012-2014.  Over the course of those three years, they drafted Harrison Smith, Xavier Rhodes, and Anthony Barr.  What you failed to mention was that they also invested first round picks into Matt Kalil, Sharrif Floyd, Cordarelle Patterson, and Anthony Barr.  Of those 7 first round picks they had over that time period, they got two "elite" starters and a really good borderline elite starter.  I'll ignore Teddy Bridgewater since he's an injured player, but going 50% in the first round isn't exactly this overwhelming success.  It'd be similar to using 2009-2011 to evaluated TT.  If you're going to look at the good with a team, you need to look at the bad as well.

Which players are elite?

1st round picks  my assessment based on results and where the pick was made.

005	24	Aaron Rodgers ‡ #	Quarterback	Elite	Hit
2006	5	A. J. Hawk#	LB	Below average for the 5th pick	Miss
2007	16	Justin Harrell	DT	Hurt average	miss
2008	—	No pick	—	—	-
2009	9	B. J. Raji #	DT	Above average	Hit
2009	26	Clay Matthews III #	LB	Above average	Hit
2010	23	Bryan Bulaga	OT	Above average	Hit
2011	32	Derek Sherrod	OT	Hurt but apeared a miss	Miss
2012	28	Nick Perry	DE	Above average	push
2013	26	Datone Jones	DE	Bust	Miss
2014	21	Ha Ha Clinton-Dix#	S	Turning average	push
2015	30	Damarious Randall	S	Below average	miss
2016	27	Kenny Clark	NT	Above average Hit

[MantyWrestler]

2 hours ago, CWood21 said:

Just once, I'd love to see you put some work into your argument instead of wanting everyone to do the work for you.

He’s ask No you to prove your point. Not do research to support your opinion. 

[CWood21]

5 minutes ago, MantyWrestler said:

Which players are elite?

1st round picks  my assessment based on results and where the pick was made.

I was referring to the Vikings' picks.  And I think most of your evaluation is based on evaluating them based largely on the end of their contracts.  Based on the first round picks that the Packers have had, the hits for me would be Aaron Rodgers, AJ Hawk (his last few years were obviously not good), B.J. Raji, Clay Matthews, Bryan Bulaga, and Nick Perry.  HHCD is still in the jury is out.  Of the 12 picks, I'd classify 6 as hits and 7 as non-busts.  That's a 58% success rate.  Good, but not great.

[CWood21]

7 minutes ago, MantyWrestler said:

He’s ask No you to prove your point. Not do research to support your opinion. 

No.  This isn't first time he's made an assertion that is contrary to popular opinion, I asked him to support his argument and he in turn spun around and told me that I needed to go do the work to prove myself.  When I first started to make an attempt to support my argument, he disappeared and was nowhere to be found.  You can find the thread where I started, and curious enough who showed up a week later to troll?

Just once I'd love for him to do even the slightest bit of research and presents facts rather than relying on everyone else to do it for him.

[AlexGreen#20]

10 minutes ago, MantyWrestler said:

Which players are elite?

1st round picks  my assessment based on results and where the pick was made.

005	24	Aaron Rodgers ‡ #	Quarterback	Elite	Hit
2006	5	A. J. Hawk#	LB	Below average for the 5th pick	Miss
2007	16	Justin Harrell	DT	Hurt average	miss
2008	—	No pick	—	—	-
2009	9	B. J. Raji #	DT	Above average	Hit
2009	26	Clay Matthews III #	LB	Above average	Hit
2010	23	Bryan Bulaga	OT	Above average	Hit
2011	32	Derek Sherrod	OT	Hurt but apeared a miss	Miss
2012	28	Nick Perry	DE	Above average	push
2013	26	Datone Jones	DE	Bust	Miss
2014	21	Ha Ha Clinton-Dix#	S	Turning average	push
2015	30	Damarious Randall	S	Below average	miss
2016	27	Kenny Clark	NT	Above average Hit

I guess at a stretch I can see the Harrell label as a miss, but how do you judge Sherrod? You talk about ****ty injury luck, that's another one that was devestating

[MantyWrestler]

Just now, AlexGreen#20 said:

I guess at a stretch I can see the Harrell label as a miss, but how do you judge Sherrod? You talk about ****ty injury luck, that's another one that was devestating

I guess I remember him being shaky in pre season that year and was not a plug and play OT for a first round pick but your right, who knows for sure. Harrell as well. If you count those as average it would be more than fair. Neither looked to be elite. 

Push and push

[MantyWrestler]

6 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

I was referring to the Vikings' picks.  And I think most of your evaluation is based on evaluating them based largely on the end of their contracts.  Based on the first round picks that the Packers have had, the hits for me would be Aaron Rodgers, AJ Hawk (his last few years were obviously not good), B.J. Raji, Clay Matthews, Bryan Bulaga, and Nick Perry.  HHCD is still in the jury is out.  Of the 12 picks, I'd classify 6 as hits and 7 as non-busts.  That's a 58% success rate.  Good, but not great.

Hawk was not a “hit” for the 5th pick us n the draft. You need a difference maker at #5

Perry and Bulaga are slightly above average and if that’s a hit with a 1st round  pick ok. I’ll cut some slack because they were low 1st rounders.

[CWood21]

Just now, MantyWrestler said:

Hawk was not a “hit” for the 5th pick us n the draft. You need a difference maker at #5

Perry and Bulaga are slightly above average and if that’s a hit with a 1st round  pick ok. I’ll cut some slack because they were low 1st rounders.

What exactly are you labeling as a hit?  Was he worth the 5th overall pick?  Probably not, but he was a starter for a decade and a pretty decent one.  I'd consider that a success.  Using PFF, the expect cAV for the 5th pick was 53.  His cAV was 59.  To me, that's a hit.  Maybe not this splashy hit, but a hit nonetheless.