Who should be held accountable?

[MantyWrestler]

18 hours ago, NormSizedMidget said:

You don't believe he was a top 5 RT healthy? Got anything behind this belief? Honesty curious. Got 5 better?

Maybe that’s not fair of me. Has he ever been healthy?  Maybe I’ve blamed our lack or running wide at times on the OT’s and it wasn’t them. Maybe it’s the zone blocking scheme which I hate. We haven’t been a great running team since going to it. Maybe it’s because I see Rogers scrambling all the time and a lot of it comes from his side. Rogers is extremely slippery so he saves his OL often. Top 5 should be a perennially pro bowler. I guess the rest of the league is against us. 

[MantyWrestler]

16 hours ago, TheOnlyThing said:

How is this.

The drafting between 2005-2010 was really, really good or ELITE or AS GOOD AS THE DRAFTING OF ANY OTHER NFL TEAM whatever folks want to call it. 

The 2011-2016 drafting was not on that same level. During this period, I see the drafting as about average and do not understand how anyone can view it as elite.

Some fans/posters continue to take the position, in 2017, that Ted is an ELITE drafter. I don't think that has been true for a long while now.

I think it is very appropriate to compare the first six years of ELITE drafting to the following six years of mediocre drafting when looking at issues on the current roster.

Moreover, the comparison revealing that the drafting record has declined is particularly apt when one considers that Ted lives and dies through the draft more than any other NFL GM.  

Question, has TT ever been an elite GM or do guys hit the jackpot once in a while? Ala Collins and certainly Rogers. No way he should have been available but he was and TT pulled the trigger. Without Rogers on the first list how does it look? Still elite?

i actually think TT is a good GM but he hasn’t been great lately and questioned; is he good because he is a great evaluator or does he hit more often because he acquires way more picks than other GM’s. Many in those lists were extra picks we acquired 

[Norm]

1 hour ago, MantyWrestler said:

Maybe that’s not fair of me. Has he ever been healthy?  Maybe I’ve blamed our lack or running wide at times on the OT’s and it wasn’t them. Maybe it’s the zone blocking scheme which I hate. We haven’t been a great running team since going to it. Maybe it’s because I see Rogers scrambling all the time and a lot of it comes from his side. Rogers is extremely slippery so he saves his OL often. Top 5 should be a perennially pro bowler. I guess the rest of the league is against us. 

We aren't exactly a zone blocking team that days though.

[Pugger]

I don't think it is a coincidence that in those draft years between 2005 and 2010 two of those years we were picking in the top 10 and another we had the 16th overall pick.  We haven't been in that position since.  And it isn't just the first round pick.  When you are picking in the top 20+ you are picking earlier in subsequent rounds too so you have a better shot at drafting a real difference maker in each round.  And when you depend upon D & D more than FA you want as many bites at the apple as possible so this is probably why Ted rarely makes move up trades during the draft.  If things continue to go south for us this year we have a chance for the first time to pick in the top twenty than we have since 2010.

[cooters22]

If you were on the Green Bay Packers Board of Directors and you yourself would be directly involved in getting something accomplished or done after the season to right the ship what would you do? I went with the board instead of President or GM, because they may or may not be responsible for what's going on in Green Bay. 

[cooters22]

I guess I'd start with Mark Murphy and evaluate him. I personally don't think he's the problem, but maybe Mark might have some hard choices himself this offseason.  My list of what I hope happens after the season: 

1. Evaluate Mark Murphy and find out if he's really the guy we want running our organization. I like the guy at the moment so I'd keep him. 

2. Fire/Retire Ted Thompson or lessen his role and actively find our who is going to take over his reigns and announce what is going on to the public. I always assumed Eliott Wolf was the guy but Brian Gutekunst and Alonzo Highsmith names have come up as potential GM canidates someday. I'd also bring back John Dorsey in some capacity. I was a huge fan of his. 

3. I'd force the hand of our GM and fire Dom Caper's on the spot. Sorry numbers don't lie. His are awful. But for sake of argument change just for the sake of change is needed to take over our defense. This isn't even debatable to me. 

4. I'd Evaluate Mike McCarthy and ask him who we can hire to freshen up the system and get some new, fresh ideas and add them to our offense. So I guess what I'm saying is I'd fire Edgar Bennett. It would be a hard firing for me, but things aren't always easy. Our offense is too plain jane. 

5. I'd fire Winston Moss the sideline ear for McCarthy. He obviously isn't doing a good job. McCarthy is still doing dumb game time decisions. The past few seasons we still are throwing or not throwing red flags when we need to and getting way to conservative at times. McCarthy needs a voice in his ear that reminds him that getting too conservative can cost us, remind him of January 18th, 2015. 

6. I'd also make sure Ron Zook gets fired, he has been adequate at best.

7. I'd find out why our conditioning of our players result in so many injuries. I'd hire a evaluator or hire someone from a different organization with some fresh ideas once again. 

 

[JBURGE]

35 minutes ago, cooters22 said:

I guess I'd start with Mark Murphy and evaluate him. I personally don't think he's the problem, but maybe Mark might have some hard choices himself this offseason.  My list of what I hope happens after the season: 

1. Evaluate Mark Murphy and find out if he's really the guy we want running our organization. I like the guy at the moment so I'd keep him. 

2. Fire/Retire Ted Thompson or lessen his role and actively find our who is going to take over his reigns and announce what is going on to the public. I always assumed Eliott Wolf was the guy but Brian Gutekunst and Alonzo Highsmith names have come up as potential GM canidates someday. I'd also bring back John Dorsey in some capacity. I was a huge fan of his. 

3. I'd force the hand of our GM and fire Dom Caper's on the spot. Sorry numbers don't lie. His are awful. But for sake of argument change just for the sake of change is needed to take over our defense. This isn't even debatable to me. 

4. I'd Evaluate Mike McCarthy and ask him who we can hire to freshen up the system and get some new, fresh ideas and add them to our offense. So I guess what I'm saying is I'd fire Edgar Bennett. It would be a hard firing for me, but things aren't always easy. Our offense is too plain jane. 

5. I'd fire Winston Moss the sideline ear for McCarthy. He obviously isn't doing a good job. McCarthy is still doing dumb game time decisions. The past few seasons we still are throwing or not throwing red flags when we need to and getting way to conservative at times. McCarthy needs a voice in his ear that reminds him that getting too conservative can cost us, remind him of January 18th, 2015. 

6. I'd also make sure Ron Zook gets fired, he has been adequate at best.

7. I'd find out why our conditioning of our players result in so many injuries. I'd hire a evaluator or hire someone from a different organization with some fresh ideas once again. 

 

So fire our entire staff LOL

[Norm]

5 minutes ago, JBURGE25 said:

So fire our entire staff LOL

Then do it all over again every 2/3 years when everything isn't the way they want again. That's my fear. There's nobody that will ever suffice and they'll always want whoever is in gone.

[TheOnlyThing]

2 hours ago, Pugger said:

I don't think it is a coincidence that in those draft years between 2005 and 2010 two of those years we were picking in the top 10 and another we had the 16th overall pick.  We haven't been in that position since.    

Wow, who could have anticipated the commonly trotted out "Ted just doesn't get any top 20 picks anymore" argument to defend Ted's drafting acumen since 2011?

Well, me for one when I previously explained that in comparing the drop off in the drafts between 20005-2010 and 2011-2016 that "I did not include any top 20 picks from the 2005-2010 period because the picks were either meh given where they were selected (Hawk & Raji) or poor (Harrell). Hence, the argument that the drafting success has declined because Ted has been picking later in the draft does not apply to the comparison above."  

All of Ted's elite picks between 2005-2010 came AFTER pick number 23 in the first round.

 

 

[Pugger]

19 minutes ago, NormSizedMidget said:

Then do it all over again every 2/3 years when everything isn't the way they want again. That's my fear. There's nobody that will ever suffice and they'll always want whoever is in gone.

Then we'd really be the Cleveland Browns.   

The BOD really doesn't get involved in the football operations other than hiring the GM.  We had that problem for most of our franchise's history.  The only change I see that should be done this offseason is the DC.   Perhaps Mark Murphy could try to persuade McCarthy to make this change this offseason.  Ted's contract is up after 2018 and I suspect this is when a change in GM will occur.

[CWood21]

3 hours ago, MantyWrestler said:

Nice deflection. My point with Hawk was that ILB  CAN be difference makers and very valuable. There seems to be a point of view from many on here that OG WR and ILB are not priority positions so you never should take one in the first. I disagree and gave several examples of players who certainly should have gone too 5. Throughout Hawks career he was just a guy and often not our best ILB. He was very dependable which I respect but if that’s a “hit” for the #5 pick, an average football player then I guess we do disagree. 

Bulaga has been ok to this point but I don’t think I ever said wow we have a real pro bowl RT. He’s been good but I’ve never felt he was dominant. How many more sack would he/we given up if Rogers was not excellent at escaping pressure? Watch Huntley and you’ll see. He’s been good, not great and for a late 1st round pick that’s ok. I have a much bigger issue with your opinion on Hawk. He was just a guy. People (some people) are hoping we tank to get a top 10 pick so we can get a difference maker. We had one then and he wasn’t. 

I hear well TT drafts at the end of round 1 every year you can’t get the difference makers back there. Then hear people defend Hawk as a real hit for Thompson. I just don’t get that. 

We just disagree I guess. 

No, I didn't deflect.  Marquette King and Ray Guy are impactful punters, does that mean we should rush to use a 1st round pick on punters because they could be impactful?  No, you're playing the odds game and it's highly unlikely that you find a 43 LB or 34 ILB that is an impactful player.  They generally don't happen.

Either way, we're getting off point here.  Instead of holding him to an incredibly unrealistic standard, I'm using a much more leveled approach.  Was he an elite player?  No.  But he was an above-average starter for most of his career, and he surpassed the cAV expectation.  If you want to call it a push, I wouldn't fight you too hard.  But he's certainly not a bust.

As for Bulaga, again I can't help you see what's right in front of your face.  There's a reason why most viewed Bulaga as a top 5 RT.  If you want to view that other ways, we'll just agree to disagree.  But the ridiculous standard that is being attached to picks needs to stop.  He was a really good RT, and getting that out of the 23rd (I believe) pick is outstanding value.  I'm not going to use some bs award like being a "Pro Bowl RT" to justify the value.  Look at the tackles drafted in that same range (18-25) over the previous two season as well as two seasons after Bulaga was selected: Jeff Otah (2008), Sam Baker (2008), Michael Oher (2009), Anthony Castanzo (2011), James Carpenter (2011), and Riley Reiff (2012).  I can't speak for you, but there isn't a tackle I'd take over Bryan Bulaga.  He was well worth that pick and then someo.

Nobody argued that hawk as a "real" hit.  I said he was a hit in regards to what he was expected to provide.  I'm not going to hold it against him (or anyone else) that he didn't turn into some future HoF LBer, which I'm assuming was your expectation.  If you don't see positional value that's quite clearly in the draft than I can't make you see it.  But there's a reason why QBs, pass rushers, OTs, and CBs tend to rise on draft day and RBs, IOL, and non-rush LBers tend to fall on draft day.

[CWood21]

5 minutes ago, TheOnlyThing said:

Wow, who could have anticipated the commonly trotted out "Ted just doesn't get any top 20 picks anymore" argument to defend Ted's drafting acumen since 2011?

Well, me for one when I previously explained that in comparing the drop off in the drafts between 20005-2010 and 2011-2016 that "I did not include any top 20 picks from the 2005-2010 period because the picks were either meh given where they were selected (Hawk & Raji) or poor (Harrell). Hence, the argument that the drafting success has declined because Ted has been picking later in the draft does not apply to the comparison above."  

All of Ted's elite picks between 2005-2010 came AFTER pick number 23 in the first round.

Are you going to continue to ignore the years AND years of evidence that supports the fact that drafting in the top 10 is more valuable than picking in the last 10 picks of the 1st round?  Better yet, let's go back to my original question, do you think that a person can lose the ability to "effectively" evaluate talent?

[Pugger]

11 minutes ago, TheOnlyThing said:

Wow, who could have anticipated the commonly trotted out "Ted just doesn't get any top 20 picks anymore" argument to defend Ted's drafting acumen since 2011?

Well, me for one when I previously explained that in comparing the drop off in the drafts between 20005-2010 and 2011-2016 that "I did not include any top 20 picks from the 2005-2010 period because the picks were either meh given where they were selected (Hawk & Raji) or poor (Harrell). Hence, the argument that the drafting success has declined because Ted has been picking later in the draft does not apply to the comparison above."  

All of Ted's elite picks between 2005-2010 came AFTER pick number 23 in the first round.

 

 

LOL!  That's easy to say when we only had 4 picks before #23 since 2005!  

[TheOnlyThing]

4 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Are you going to continue to ignore the years AND years of evidence that supports the fact that drafting in the top 10 is more valuable than picking in the last 10 picks of the 1st round?  Better yet, let's go back to my original question, do you think that a person can lose the ability to "effectively" evaluate talent?

The question being debated is whether, as you insist, Ted Thompson is an ELITE drafter.

I have responded, that the drafting during the first 6 years of Ted's reign as Packer GM his drafting was elite despite the fact not 1 of his 3 top 20 picks was even close to being an elite selection. Hence, Ted's 3 top 20 picks, prior to 2011, are not germane to a discussion of whether his drafting since 2011 remains elite as you and the Ted fans contend.

[CWood21]

Just now, TheOnlyThing said:

The question being debated is whether, as you insist, Ted Thompson is an ELITE drafter.

I have responded, that the drafting during the first 6 years of Ted's reign as Packer GM his drafting was elite despite the fact not 1 of his 3 top 20 picks was even close to being an elite selection. Hence, Ted's 3 top 20 picks, prior to 2011, are not germane to a discussion of whether his drafting since 2011 remains elite as you and the Ted fans contend.

You're picking your time frame to fit your argument, which is why I posed the question.  Do you believe that a person can lose the ability to effectively evalute talent?  Yes or no.