Who should be held accountable?

[Norm]

4 hours ago, NormSizedMidget said:

Fire Capers. Possibly fire Bennett (they won't) and bring in a young fresh guy. Tell Rodgers to start taking check downs. Draft a pass rusher, or get one somehow. Move Clay inside. Maybe see if he can take a pay cut. Move on from Cobb. Go for a tight end again. 

Is that fair Cooters? IDK, that's what I would do.

I might even lean to promoting Wolf and seeing if he'd still stay on but as a "scout"

He's talked about that before.

[packfanfb]

35 minutes ago, NormSizedMidget said:

Is that fair Cooters? IDK, that's what I would do.

I might even lean to promoting Wolf and seeing if he'd still stay on but as a "scout"

He's talked about that before.

Yea, I'd let TT be a scout and make Wolf the GM...TT loves the draft and evaluating prospects, so just let him do that. Let Wolf make up the roster, run FA, trades, etc. 

[Norm]

11 minutes ago, packfanfb said:

Yea, I'd let TT be a scout and make Wolf the GM...TT loves the draft and evaluating prospects, so just let him do that. Let Wolf make up the roster, run FA, trades, etc. 

Yeah  but didn't your crowd swear he was the one making all the FA moves? How'd that work out

[MantyWrestler]

On 11/24/2017 at 11:28 AM, CWood21 said:

No, I didn't deflect.  Marquette King and Ray Guy are impactful punters, does that mean we should rush to use a 1st round pick on punters because they could be impactful?  No, you're playing the odds game and it's highly unlikely that you find a 43 LB or 34 ILB that is an impactful player.  They generally don't happen.

Either way, we're getting off point here.  Instead of holding him to an incredibly unrealistic standard, I'm using a much more leveled approach.  Was he an elite player?  No.  But he was an above-average starter for most of his career, and he surpassed the cAV expectation.  If you want to call it a push, I wouldn't fight you too hard.  But he's certainly not a bust.

As for Bulaga, again I can't help you see what's right in front of your face.  There's a reason why most viewed Bulaga as a top 5 RT.  If you want to view that other ways, we'll just agree to disagree.  But the ridiculous standard that is being attached to picks needs to stop.  He was a really good RT, and getting that out of the 23rd (I believe) pick is outstanding value.  I'm not going to use some bs award like being a "Pro Bowl RT" to justify the value.  Look at the tackles drafted in that same range (18-25) over the previous two season as well as two seasons after Bulaga was selected: Jeff Otah (2008), Sam Baker (2008), Michael Oher (2009), Anthony Castanzo (2011), James Carpenter (2011), and Riley Reiff (2012).  I can't speak for you, but there isn't a tackle I'd take over Bryan Bulaga.  He was well worth that pick and then someo.

Nobody argued that hawk as a "real" hit.  I said he was a hit in regards to what he was expected to provide.  I'm not going to hold it against him (or anyone else) that he didn't turn into some future HoF LBer, which I'm assuming was your expectation.  If you don't see positional value that's quite clearly in the draft than I can't make you see it.  But there's a reason why QBs, pass rushers, OTs, and CBs tend to rise on draft day and RBs, IOL, and non-rush LBers tend to fall on draft day.

So now your comparing King and Guy to a guy like Jr Seau? Wow. Again, you prove my point although I disagree with your opinion that Hawk was an above average ILB. I’ll guve you average though. Once again you claim ILB is not a valuable pick but your happy with taking an ILB at 5 who is an average ILB. Hell Martinez is darn near as good and we got him in the 5th round. If he was Seau... great pick but Hawk was not a great pick or player. That’s a kiss IMO. I want more out of the 5th pick not a guy I can get 4 rounds later. 

[Norm]

14 minutes ago, MantyWrestler said:

but your happy with taking an ILB at 5 who is an average ILB. 

You say this like he knew draft day "yeah he'll be average, it's coo"

Did anyone on this website watch Hawk in college? You would all juice your pants if we got a guy that looked like he did at OSU next year.

[CWood21]

17 minutes ago, MantyWrestler said:

So now your comparing King and Guy to a guy like Jr Seau? Wow. Again, you prove my point although I disagree with your opinion that Hawk was an above average ILB. I’ll guve you average though. Once again you claim ILB is not a valuable pick but your happy with taking an ILB at 5 who is an average ILB. Hell Martinez is darn near as good and we got him in the 5th round. If he was Seau... great pick but Hawk was not a great pick or player. That’s a kiss IMO. I want more out of the 5th pick not a guy I can get 4 rounds later. 

No, I was merely saying you can have an impactful player at a less impactful position.  Don't put words in my mouth.

Am I happy with taking an ILB at 5?  Hell no.  I didn't even like taking him as a 43 OLB, but he was the BPA.  The Packers should have traded down and got more assets, but that probably wasn't the case.  Instead, the Packers took the BPA at the time.

You're making two totally different arguments here.  Was he worth the pick and is he a bust or not are two different discussions to be had.

[CWood21]

6 minutes ago, NormSizedMidget said:

You say this like he knew draft day "yeah he'll be average, it's coo"

Did anyone on this website watch Hawk in college? You would all juice your pants if we got a guy that looked like he did at OSU next year.

Absolutely.  The dude was a stud at Ohio State, and for most of his career in Green Bay he was really good.  But people only choose to remember his final years in Green Bay.

[Norm]

37 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Absolutely.  The dude was a stud at Ohio State, and for most of his career in Green Bay he was really good.  But people only choose to remember his final years in Green Bay.

Dude, I was so stoked, he was SOOOOO ******* GOOD. But everyone forgets that. I feel like they were too young or just aren't CFB fans. 

Disclaimer: I hate non CFB fans. Clearly superior, but we don't need to go there.

[Rodjahs12]

I really don't see any benefit to moving Matthews inside. Martinez is already better there than him and Ryan is a fine, cheap thumper. If Clay wants to still be here, he's going to have to get it done on the edge, even if it's only in a rotational role. 

[ReadyToThump]

16 hours ago, Pugger said:

When he was struggling there were a lot of folks ready to run him out of town on a rail.  And now that the team is struggling with poor QB play folks are clamoring to clean out management. 

Polar opposite situations. 

Adams had a down 2nd year after showing promise and people were way to quick to call for his head. 

Management (depending on who you're specifically talking about here) has struggled for a long time ala Capers. MM has been ridiculed for his playcalling for a some time now, and TT has been getting ripped just as long for his drafting/transactions. 

[Joe]

It's very simple: Fire the strength and conditioning team and bring in a whole different philosophy and then Capers and the guys who have scouted DL for him and move to a 4-3 defense. Everyone seems to constantly be hurt. Perry is far better off in a 4-3 and both Biegel and Fackrell would probably be more productive rushing as SAM LB's. CMIII is a shell of his former self. We've wasted several drafts playing around with drafting "Dom's guys" and the front seven still hasn't been fixed. We've brought in stop-gap players we continue to give up on to try and fix that situation and that isn't working either. We have no pass rush because Mike Daniels is the only one commanding attention along that DL and that usually only happens when we actually run packages with more than 2 guys on that DL.

[Pugger]

8 hours ago, ReadyToThump said:

Polar opposite situations. 

Adams had a down 2nd year after showing promise and people were way to quick to call for his head. 

Management (depending on who you're specifically talking about here) has struggled for a long time ala Capers. MM has been ridiculed for his playcalling for a some time now, and TT has been getting ripped just as long for his drafting/transactions. 

Under this management we've appeared in the playoffs for 8 consecutive years, even with Capers and his underwhelming at times defenses.  Only some Packers fans would call that struggling.  MM only gets ripped when we lose games and folks complain about TT for his inaction in FA and not necessarily his drafting.  He misses on some of his picks but so does every other GM in this league, including some of the guys folks around here think are elite.

[Packerraymond]

13 hours ago, NormSizedMidget said:

Dude, I was so stoked, he was SOOOOO ******* GOOD. But everyone forgets that. I feel like they were too young or just aren't CFB fans. 

Disclaimer: I hate non CFB fans. Clearly superior, but we don't need to go there.

The whole forum at that time was beyond jacked. 120 tackles, 16.5 TFL and 9.5 sacks, unreal numbers as a senior. Then went out and ran a 4.47 at this Pro Day. 

That being said I was one of the few that far preferred Vernon Davis. I think you'd be looking at one of the best TEs in NFL history if he had an entire career of Rodgers and Favre.

[MacReady]

Just now, Packerraymond said:

That being said I was one of the few that far preferred Vernon Davis. I think you'd be looking at one of the best TEs in NFL history if he had an entire career of Rodgers and Favre.

I'd still take Hawk right now if it was between Davis and Hawk.  100% because Davis inferred and (I think) blatantly stated that he didn't want to play for us. 

Considering Haloti Ngata was the best player taken in the first round of that year's draft, maybe Mario Williams, I'm really not understanding the hate for that Hawk pick.  It was a very okay draft.  It's not like Mandarich where we passed on like three consecutive Hall of Fame players. 

The closest thing to a Hall of Fame player in that entire draft is Gostkoswki.  A kicker.  We got a top ten player from that draft (Jennings) in the second round. 

People need to quit complaining about that Hawk pick when looking back at that draft. 

[Packerraymond]

1 minute ago, HorizontoZenith said:

I'd still take Hawk right now if it was between Davis and Hawk.  100% because Davis inferred and (I think) blatantly stated that he didn't want to play for us. 

Considering Haloti Ngata was the best player taken in the first round of that year's draft, maybe Mario Williams, I'm really not understanding the hate for that Hawk pick.  It was a very okay draft.  It's not like Mandarich where we passed on like three consecutive Hall of Fame players. 

The closest thing to a Hall of Fame player in that entire draft is Gostkoswki.  A kicker.  We got a top ten player from that draft (Jennings) in the second round. 

People need to quit complaining about that Hawk pick when looking back at that draft. 

He said that after the draft. When 49ers press asked him if he was bummed he wouldn't get to play with Favre.

It's the same type of political correctness that people are pissed about Mac not throwing Hundley under the bus to the media. First day with his new team, is he supposed to say "yeah it sucks, I wanted to play with Favre but here I am stuck with Alex Smith."