Who should be held accountable?

[wgbeethree]

38 minutes ago, TheOnlyThing said:

About a month ago, I believe you started a thread in which you declared you would provide the necessary data/evidence to back up your oft-repeated assertion that "You look at [TT's] draft record and it stands up as well as anyone's"?

I apologize if that data/evidence has been produced and I overlooked it. Let me know where it has been presented, I'll review it, and if it supports your position, I'll concede the point.

However, if you and other Ted fans are simply going to keep repeating the mantra that Ted is an ELITE drafter or AS GOOD AS ANY OTHER NFL GM IN THE DRAFT over and over without providing any evidence to support that position, I will certainly continue to voice my disagreement with that obviously subjective opinion.

And I will do this because I do not believe Ted's drafting since 2011 has been ELITE.

How hard is it to Google something?

Try "best drafter of the last ten years nfl".

First result has Green Bay at number one over the last ten years.

Second result has Green Bay at number three over the last five years.

There you go. Literally took two minutes. 

[Pugger]

10 hours ago, cooters22 said:

Anybody that classifies AJ Hawk as a hit, I'm sorry we can't even have a intelligent conversation, then factor in the fact he was the #5 pick in the draft and I just can't fathom how much better he should have been. I'll give you Nick Perry but it took almost 4 years to get where he is now, and he's slightly underperforming this year as well. I'd give him a push.

Unfortunately for us 2006 was a below average draft class.  Hawk didn't really bust but for a #5 he was a disappointment for sure.  Perry is a good player but the poor guy can't stay healthy.  Did he have these issues in college?  If not you can't knock a GM for that.  Nobody is that clairvoyant.

[Pugger]

10 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Picking in the early teens rather than the mid twenties would probably help with improving the overall roster quality?

Do you think Randall is still the pick at pick 18 or are we all very pleased with the corner picked there in Marcus Peters?

As much as I love HHCD, picks 11 through 17 that year were Lewan, Beckham, Donald, Fuller, Shazier, Martin, Mosley

Instead of Datone Jones at 26, Sheldon Richardson went at 13, Lotulelei at 14, Reid at 18, Long at 20, Eifert at 21, Trufant at 22, Rhodes at 25.

Yes.  The choices other than the ones we ultimately took that you put forth in this post were all long gone by the time we were drafting.  The only way we would have had a shot at any of these if we trade up and give up multiple picks in these drafts.  If this year we are picking in the teens we'll get a chance to take a true difference maker for the first time in a while.

[Pugger]

10 hours ago, CWood21 said:

You can think he's overrated, and think he's average at best.  That doesn't make him a bust.

No but it is disppointing to end up with an average player when you are drafting that high.  We ended up very unlucky that class was so poor in the end.

[CWood21]

8 hours ago, TheOnlyThing said:

About a month ago, I believe you started a thread in which you declared you would provide the necessary data/evidence to back up your oft-repeated assertion that "You look at [TT's] draft record and it stands up as well as anyone's"?

I apologize if that data/evidence has been produced and I overlooked it. Let me know where it has been presented, I'll review it, and if it supports your position, I'll concede the point.

However, if you and other Ted fans are simply going to keep repeating the mantra that Ted is an ELITE drafter or AS GOOD AS ANY OTHER NFL GM IN THE DRAFT over and over without providing any evidence to support that position, I will certainly continue to voice my disagreement with that obviously subjective opinion.

And I will do this because I do not believe Ted's drafting since 2011 has been ELITE.

Why does the burden of proof rest solely on me, and you have no reason to support your argument?  Oh wait, that's right because you haven't done anything and refuse to do anything to support your assertion.  I'm not going to put in the work if you're going to move the goalposts when I post the work.  Nor am I going to use arbitrary set of points to fit my argument.  I can pick any 2-3 year stretch that is going to make another team look like an elite drafting team, and that same time period that makes the Packers look miserable.  But when I proposed on working on the project TOGETHER, you were nowhere to be found.  It's clear you have no desire to have any real productive discussion, and instead continue to thump your chest with a fictitious argument that NOBODY is making.

You could do exactly what @wgbeethree proposed, but you'll make some sort of argument about the past drafts being too dated or some crap like that.

[CWood21]

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/04/nfl-draft-performance-grades-best-drafting-teams-picks-classes-2012-2016

 

[Packerraymond]

17 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/04/nfl-draft-performance-grades-best-drafting-teams-picks-classes-2012-2016

 

Interesting, that's with Nick Perry counting as our 2nd worst pick since 2012. 

My issue is that we've got a lot of "good" but there literally might not be any "great" on this roster outside of Rodgers. Bahkitiari is probably your only argument.

The defense in 2010 had 4-5 players who played that season at an elite level, Matthews, Collins, Woodson, Raji and maybe Tramon (he certainly was elite in the playoffs). I'd argue from the injury to Collins and the retirement of Woodson on, this defense hasn't had a single elite player.

Offensively, we used to have Jennings, Nelson, Jones, Cobb, Finely. That group is now down to older, slower Nelson, older, slower Cobb, Adams and an invisible TE group.

We've drafted well, but at the same time it's easy to see this roster has declined, which was to be expecting, but I didn't expect as significantly as it has.

[CWood21]

Would have preferred this as an open thread rather than a poll, but that might just be me.  Either way, here's my thoughts on the whole situation.

Look, I don't think anyone isn't frustrated with our current situation but when you stack up TT's draft success over the years, he's been very productive.  I'm gonna start with the negatives.  I think he's incredibly stubborn especially with his lack of willingness to use all avenues to improve the team.  And I'm not talking about moving future high picks for veteran player or signing FAs to big contracts either.  But utilizing the players who fall through the cracks.  I honestly believe that this team would be better off weathering the injury storms that are inevitable.  Despite the Bennett signing blowing up in our face, I'm still hopeful that this offseason was a sign of things to come and not just an anomaly.  If that makes me an optimist, so be it.  But onto the positives.  Unless you truly believe you can lose your ability to effectively evaluate talent, I'm not sure how you can go from being a consensus top 5 drafter to someone who needs to be replaced.  There's little doubt in my mind that Ted Thompson is one of the smartest men in the NFL, and knows how to evaluate prospects.  I think removing from the entire equation creates more harm than good.  Which is why I think the best route would be for him to move into a senior advisor role is probably the best for the team.  That being said, I'd have to imagine that there is a succession plan in place.  Both Gut and Wolf both had multiple interviews this past offseason, and they both pulled their names from consideration.  I'd have to imagine that there is a path in front of them, and it might happen as soon as this offseason.  I guess we will find out.

As for Mike McCarthy, this QB whisperer has been highly discussed and recent weeks.  At this point in their careers, I think firing him creates more harm than what good comes from it.  I don't think firing MM suddenly fixes our defensive issues, and I think it could create more issues with the offense.  As I've said before, I'm not sure I'm willing to piss off Aaron Rodgers or destroy our offense on the hope it fixes our defense.  We're a top 5 offense with a healthy Aaron Rodgers and MM.  Remember how mad Petyon Manning was when they fired Tom Moore?  I'm really not interested to see if Rodgers is the same way.  I think those two are best when working together.

As for Dom, I think his time has come.  If nothing else, it's a breath of fresh air for our players.  Given how much we've invested in our defense in recent years and the lack of success that we've had for them, I think at this point a new voice is the right direction to make.  I like our positional coaches, and quite frankly I'd rather see us promote from within.  I'm not sure that hiring from outside fixes the issue, and creates it's own issues.  We've been drafting for our scheme for the last several years.

TL;DR TT should stay in some capacity, firing MM creates more harm than good, and Dom should go.

 

[Packerraymond]

Ted staying as a FO advisor to Wolf would be the ideal scenario, I'm just not sure he could handle being apart of the staff and not having the final stay. It's hard to know much about Ted seeing he talks to us at the Combine, draft and TC and then, bye. All we really know is the guy uses two hands to drink a water bottle.

[CWood21]

31 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Interesting, that's with Nick Perry counting as our 2nd worst pick since 2012. 

My issue is that we've got a lot of "good" but there literally might not be any "great" on this roster outside of Rodgers. Bahkitiari is probably your only argument.

The defense in 2010 had 4-5 players who played that season at an elite level, Matthews, Collins, Woodson, Raji and maybe Tramon (he certainly was elite in the playoffs). I'd argue from the injury to Collins and the retirement of Woodson on, this defense hasn't had a single elite player.

Offensively, we used to have Jennings, Nelson, Jones, Cobb, Finely. That group is now down to older, slower Nelson, older, slower Cobb, Adams and an invisible TE group.

We've drafted well, but at the same time it's easy to see this roster has declined, which was to be expecting, but I didn't expect as significantly as it has.

And honestly, I don't really have an issue with this stance.  But I also think we're having a very different discussion if we're getting halfway decent QB play.

[Packerraymond]

3 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

And honestly, I don't really have an issue with this stance.  But I also think we're having a very different discussion if we're getting halfway decent QB play.

Oh we'd be like 8-2/7-3 by now talking about how huge that matchup with Minny will be for the division in a month.

It's easy to see now how much of Cobb and Jordy's game are Rodgers ability to extend plays. We need to add something different there.

There's some interesting FA WRs I'm interested in that won't break the bank. Guys like John Brown from ARI, or Paul Richardson from Sea, legit speedsters that could add something different without breaking the bank.

My ideal situation would be to cut Cobb and call up Allen Robinson. He's got great talent, but he's had back to back rough years. Sell him on the Alshon Jeffrey deal. 1 year/10m to play with Aaron Rodgers and hit FA as a 25 year old hopefully coming off a huge season. Adams and Robinson out wide, Nelson in the slot. Use that 3rd round comp for Lang to draft a guy to develop for the year.

[CWood21]

21 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Oh we'd be like 8-2/7-3 by now talking about how huge that matchup with Minny will be for the division in a month.

It's easy to see now how much of Cobb and Jordy's game are Rodgers ability to extend plays. We need to add something different there.

There's some interesting FA WRs I'm interested in that won't break the bank. Guys like John Brown from ARI, or Paul Richardson from Sea, legit speedsters that could add something different without breaking the bank.

My ideal situation would be to cut Cobb and call up Allen Robinson. He's got great talent, but he's had back to back rough years. Sell him on the Alshon Jeffrey deal. 1 year/10m to play with Aaron Rodgers and hit FA as a 25 year old hopefully coming off a huge season. Adams and Robinson out wide, Nelson in the slot. Use that 3rd round comp for Lang to draft a guy to develop for the year.

Absolutely.  And that was my point.  Things are bad enough if we're going from Aaron Rodgers to Sam Bradford as our starting QB.  But it's getting magnified even more when we're not even getting halfway decent QB play.  I mean, does anyone think that our offense is as inept as it was against the Ravens if we have a team who doesn't turn the ball over?  I mean, it's not rocket science by any means.  Turnovers hamper your ability to win.

As for your proposal, I like where your head is at but it's not going to happen.  They're not going to give up potentially a 3rd round compensatory pick for a guy to keep the seat warm.  Assuming they let Morgan Burnett walk, you're essentially canceling out his loss with the signing of Allen Robinson.  Are you willing to give up Morgan Burnett and a 3rd round pick for Allen Robinson?  I'm not.  If we're re-signing Burnett, this could be an offseason where the Packers are fairly active or at least could be.

[Packerraymond]

56 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Absolutely.  And that was my point.  Things are bad enough if we're going from Aaron Rodgers to Sam Bradford as our starting QB.  But it's getting magnified even more when we're not even getting halfway decent QB play.  I mean, does anyone think that our offense is as inept as it was against the Ravens if we have a team who doesn't turn the ball over?  I mean, it's not rocket science by any means.  Turnovers hamper your ability to win.

As for your proposal, I like where your head is at but it's not going to happen.  They're not going to give up potentially a 3rd round compensatory pick for a guy to keep the seat warm.  Assuming they let Morgan Burnett walk, you're essentially canceling out his loss with the signing of Allen Robinson.  Are you willing to give up Morgan Burnett and a 3rd round pick for Allen Robinson?  I'm not.  If we're re-signing Burnett, this could be an offseason where the Packers are fairly active or at least could be.

Eh Morgan Burnett and a 5th. No way he's getting 10m+. And yes, I do that trade. I'm going for the best team every year, comp picks shouldn't be the priority.

[CWood21]

3 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Eh Morgan Burnett and a 5th. No way he's getting 10m+. And yes, I do that trade. I'm going for the best team every year, comp picks shouldn't be the priority.

I think he could get $8M pretty easily.  Wouldn't surprise me if he could get north of that.  I don't think the difference between Allen Robinson coming off a torn ACL is going to be someone whose going to make our team exponentially better.  I'd like to think it would, but it's too risky for me.

[MantyWrestler]

17 hours ago, CWood21 said:

What exactly are you labeling as a hit?  Was he worth the 5th overall pick?  Probably not, but he was a starter for a decade and a pretty decent one.  I'd consider that a success.  Using PFF, the expect cAV for the 5th pick was 53.  His cAV was 59.  To me, that's a hit.  Maybe not this splashy hit, but a hit nonetheless.

You just said he wasn’t worth the 5th pick yourself in your argument. Problem is we took him there. The 5th pick for an average ILB is a miss in my book. Terrible, no but not a good pick for n that spot. I’m good with Bulaga bring a little better than average done he was a late first.