WR Talk

[Daniel]

8 hours ago, incognito_man said:

Zay Flowers is the best WR prospect in the class. Can threaten horizontally, vertically and after the catch. He plays bigger than he is and is a natural downfield receiver with slot WR COD. 

Not a top-5 guy because of his size and inconsistent hands so far. I bet a lot of today's play-callers would like to add a triple threat like him. Can't see him getting past pick 14.

I love Flowers’ body control and hands, but I don’t think he’s as good a prospect as Addison or JSN.

JSN is the only complete package in the class.

[BetterCallSaul]

4 minutes ago, Daniel said:

JSN is the only complete package in the class.

He’s not a complete package. He is also small, lacks elite speed, and is pretty much a slot-only player right now. JSN is gonna be good, but he’s not a “complete package” at WR. 

[Daniel]

56 minutes ago, BetterCallSaul said:

He’s not a complete package. He is also small, lacks elite speed, and is pretty much a slot-only player right now. JSN is gonna be good, but he’s not a “complete package” at WR. 

I feel like we aren’t talking about the same player. JSN is 6’1” and had IIRC had either the best, or one of the best, 3 cone and short shuttle times of all the receivers at the combine.

I’m pretty sure you’re either mistaken or just don’t know what you’re talking about.

[BetterCallSaul]

Just now, Daniel said:

I feel like we aren’t talking about the same player. JSN is 6’1” and had IIRC had either the best, or one of the best, 3 cone and short shuttle times of all the receivers at the combine.

I’m pretty sure you’re either mistaken or just don’t know what you’re talking about.

Short area quicks? He’s elite. Long speed? No. Fast is different than quick. 6’1 and sub 200 pounds is not “the total package” at WR.

Calvin Johnson, AJ Green, Randy Moss, Julio Jones, and Andre Johnson were the “total packages.” JSN is a very good prospect for sure, but he’s not in that realm.

Maybe we have different views on what that phrase means. To me, it means you have every skill at your disposal. JSN does not. He lacks the great size to be a jump ball threat on the outside & lacks the track speed to run past everyone. 

[Daniel]

2 minutes ago, BetterCallSaul said:

Short area quicks? He’s elite. Long speed? No. Fast is different than quick. 6’1 and sub 200 pounds is not “the total package” at WR.

Calvin Johnson, AJ Green, Randy Moss, Julio Jones, and Andre Johnson were the “total packages.” JSN is a very good prospect for sure, but he’s not in that realm.

Maybe we have different views on what that phrase means. To me, it means you have every skill at your disposal. JSN does not. He lacks the great size to be a jump ball threat on the outside & lacks the track speed to run past everyone. 

If you need a receiver to have an "elite" 40, then we aren't evaluating WRs the same.

And just fyi, JSN is taller than the average NFL receiver and within 5 lbs of the average weight.  That's in no way small.

And a 4.48 40 is 0.01 seconds faster than AJ Brown.  You're grasping at straws.

You can disagree about the quality of a prospect.  I'm not claiming to be 100 percent right all the time on who's better than who.  But don't be out here making crap up.  It doesn't help your point.

[Hunter2_1]

JSN is the best WR prospect, for me, but put me down as someone who also thinks he isn’t the complete package. Notably the speed. But at the same time, I think his technical ability and route running will mitigate that. He’ll be open enough 

[BetterCallSaul]

3 minutes ago, Daniel said:

If you need a receiver to have an "elite" 40, then we aren't evaluating WRs the same.

And just fyi, JSN is taller than the average NFL receiver and within 5 lbs of the average weight.  That's in no way small.

And a 4.48 40 is 0.01 seconds faster than AJ Brown.  You're grasping at straws.

You can disagree about the quality of a prospect.  I'm not claiming to be 100 percent right all the time on who's better than who.  But don't be out here making crap up.  It doesn't help your point.

Lol what are you even talking about? I like JSN a lot. I wouldn’t blink at all if he’s a top 10 pick even. But you calling him “average” in multiple categories should solidify my point. He’s too small and too slow to be considered this elite flawless prospect. How is that “making stuff up?”

I know the argument you’re making. You don’t have to have elite traits to be an elite player. I get that. But when evaluating prospects and potential, it does matter. We didn’t even get into the fact that JSN doesn’t work from anywhere but the slot, where he belongs. He played against soft zones and never drew the #1 cornerback assignments when he was there. He played with the likely #1 overall pick as his QB. He played with at least 3 other top 20 picks at WR. He barely ever saw a snap vs. man coverage in college and when he did, it was against a #2/#3 corner.

Again, I like him and think he’s gonna be a very good NFL player. You are overvaluing him as some wart-less prospect who is about to turn the league upside down. To me, that’s what a “total package” looks like at WR.

But whatever. I’m done making stuff up now. 

[BetterCallSaul]

9 minutes ago, Hunter2_1 said:

JSN is the best WR prospect, for me, but put me down as someone who also thinks he isn’t the complete package. Notably the speed. But at the same time, I think his technical ability and route running will mitigate that. He’ll be open enough 

I agree. He is extremely nuanced as a route runner and has elite COD. That matters more than being able to win contested jump balls on the outside or run past everyone with track speed. But guys who can do all of those things get the “total package” label. There are only a select handful of players that qualify as that. Even AJ Brown, who is arguably WR1 in the NFL, doesn’t have everything. It’s not a knock 😑

[adamq]

 

[incognito_man]

3 hours ago, Daniel said:

I love Flowers’ body control and hands, but I don’t think he’s as good a prospect as Addison or JSN.

JSN is the only complete package in the class.

I have Zay as a mid-1st and Hyatt and JSN as late firsts. JSN plays smaller than he is, gets caught from behind on drag routes, doesn't fall forward after contact enough. I don't think he has elite upside. He doesn't threaten the defense horizontally, vertically or after the catch. He's a smooth, crafty slot. 

[Daniel]

31 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

I have Zay as a mid-1st and Hyatt and JSN as late firsts. JSN plays smaller than he is, gets caught from behind on drag routes, doesn't fall forward after contact enough. I don't think he has elite upside. He doesn't threaten the defense horizontally, vertically or after the catch. He's a smooth, crafty slot. 

I can see not having elite upside, but I don't know if I agree on not threatening the defense horizontally, but I may be putting too much stock in that bowl game.  I still think he's the only receiver in the class without serious knocks.  If the Titans take him at 11, I won't be unhappy.  If they took Zay or Addison, as much as I'd like to have them complement the offense, I'd feel a little cheated.

When I say complete package, I'm talking about a prospect that checks the box for everything you want to see, as "does he meet all of these requirements," not "is he elite in every category."  Hyatt's tape is limited to just Will Fuller type plays, and he may develop a more diverse route tree in the NFL, but he's not there yet.  Johnston does not play up to his physical abilities at all, Rice plays like he's solely a possession receiver 99% of the time, and Zay and Addison are too small, with Zay being way too small.  That's not to say he's too small to play the position and play it well, but he's way too small for that size not to be a serious concern.

JSN isn't a perfect prospect, but I think he's the only one in this class (with the possible exception of Tillman) who doesn't have a big, obvious knock on him as a prospect.

[incognito_man]

22 minutes ago, Daniel said:

I can see not having elite upside, but I don't know if I agree on not threatening the defense horizontally, but I may be putting too much stock in that bowl game.  I still think he's the only receiver in the class without serious knocks.  If the Titans take him at 11, I won't be unhappy.  If they took Zay or Addison, as much as I'd like to have them complement the offense, I'd feel a little cheated.

When I say complete package, I'm talking about a prospect that checks the box for everything you want to see, as "does he meet all of these requirements," not "is he elite in every category."  Hyatt's tape is limited to just Will Fuller type plays, and he may develop a more diverse route tree in the NFL, but he's not there yet.  Johnston does not play up to his physical abilities at all, Rice plays like he's solely a possession receiver 99% of the time, and Zay and Addison are too small, with Zay being way too small.  That's not to say he's too small to play the position and play it well, but he's way too small for that size not to be a serious concern.

JSN isn't a perfect prospect, but I think he's the only one in this class (with the possible exception of Tillman) who doesn't have a big, obvious knock on him as a prospect.

I see a high floor slot guy. Those guys tend to go late in day 1 or day 2. Just can't justify using a premium pick on that skill-set. I don't see a Justin Jefferson slot-boundary transition with JSN. 

He looks like he plays a lot smaller than he actually is. The opposite is true for Flowers.

[Hunter2_1]

RAS

 

2. J Mingo - 9.93

7. Hyatt - 9.46

8. JSN - 9.39

25. Downs - 7.79

27. Flowers - 7.66

38. Addison - 5.82

 

 

 

[nicfre2011]

3 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said:

RAS

 

2. J Mingo - 9.93

7. Hyatt - 9.46

8. JSN - 9.39

25. Downs - 7.79

27. Flowers - 7.66

38. Addison - 5.82

 

 

 

Could Mingo be a surprise 1st round pick (for the draft fanbase and pundits)?

Could a team like what he brings to the table right now and as a projection more than Johnston and Hyatt for example?

[BetterCallSaul]

10 hours ago, nicfre2011 said:

Could Mingo be a surprise 1st round pick (for the draft fanbase and pundits)?

No. And I am a pretty big/early fan of his. He is a 3rd rounder at best. Way too limited as a WR right now. Doesn’t play as fast as he timed either, to be honest. He is gonna be fun after the catch though.