Ravens place tag on QB Lamar Jackson; Jackson requests trade (Page 52)

[incognito_man]

19 hours ago, MonserinNC said:

Dont do that bruh....the idea here is basically I should "shut up" when I clearly see a white quarterback get paid before a black one....and I probably will get banned from this website, for speaking on this issue as well.......the fact that I need to speak to you delicately when my people are the ones that are exploited is atrocious.... when they close this thread, and save your account while blocking me....what is the point?? Its just telling another black man to shut up while hyping up Seminoles 1......another native tribe

Dude, you're being part of the problem right now. Mindlessly tossing out totally and completely baseless accusations like you are diminishes the cases when it DOES actually happen.

This case is not about race. At all. 

Edited March 12, 2023 by incognito_man

[seminoles1]

12 minutes ago, NudeTayne said:

But why then doesn't Detroit have to give 6 and 18 if they sign him (before July 22)? I'm confused as to how it works with teams choosing which first rounders to send.

Teams don't get to choose if they sign Lamar to an offer sheet. It's that team's own 1st round picks, not 1sts they had previously traded for. Detroit's own 1st is #18, so they'd give up #18 and their own 2024 1st if they signed him to an offer sheet and Baltimore didn't match.

Before Lamar signs an offer sheet, Baltimore and that team could instead choose to engage in trade negotiations and then it wouldn't have to simply be 2 1st round picks. So let's say Detroit is about to sign Lamar to a deal and Baltimore engages them in trade conversations. They could then negotiate to try and include pick #6.

[NudeTayne]

37 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

The way it’s written, Detroit isn’t choosing. It’s the team’s original FRP. So for Detroit, they keep 6, and give up 18. For Houston, they’d give up 2, and keep 12.

The only time it wouldn’t be their original would be if they traded their FRP, and got someone else’s, like Denver. 

Thanks for the responses. That makes sense. One more then: if a team had traded away their '23 first rounder already, for simplicity's sake had not traded for anyone else's first, would they still be able to bid? If they put forth a contract that Baltimore couldn't/wouldn't match would Baltimore then get that team's '24 and '25 firsts? If so, man, a team could trade away their first for future assets and then do this with minimal investment.

[NudeTayne]

42 minutes ago, DawgX said:

None of this would have happened if @NudeTayne was GM.

Yup. A '23 2nd, 3rd & 4th, as well as a '24 5th from SF gets it done. Call it a "reverse Buckner" (one of Tayne's favorite moves). 

I would have also promoted Greg Roman to HC and put Harbaugh back to ST where he literally thrived. But don't get me started on all the things wrong with that organization smdh

[sparky151]

Teams have to provide their next 2 first round picks (or better). So if Houston signed Lamar and the Ravens chose the picks it would be #2 this year plus their pick next year but they could agree with Baltimore to include #12 this year instead of next year's pick. They likely wouldn't offer that though as nearer picks are worth more than later picks. 

A team could screw over the Ravens by reaching an agreement in principle with Jackson soon but not actually signing him until after the draft. Then the picks would be from 2024 and 2025. If the team was Indianapolis, they could swing a deal with Baltimore for say pick #4 this year alone as compensation. If teams are worried they are just negotiating a deal that Baltimore will match, they could offer the full guarantees that the Ravens don't want to provide. If Lamar wants out of Baltimore and can reach a deal with another team, he's not likely to be in purple this fall. 

[Soko]

3 minutes ago, NudeTayne said:

Thanks for the responses. That makes sense. One more then: if a team had traded away their '23 first rounder already, for simplicity's sake had not traded for anyone else's first, would they still be able to bid? If they put forth a contract that Baltimore couldn't/wouldn't match would Baltimore then get that team's '24 and '25 firsts? If so, man, a team could trade away their first for future assets and then do this with minimal investment.

Correct.

If a team with no FRPs signs Lamar to an offer sheet that Baltimore doesn’t match, that team would be forfeiting their next two future picks (likely 24’ and 25’) to Baltimore. 

So yeah, if you were Chicago and just executed that Panthers trade, you could then trade back again for more future picks (a 2024 or even 2025 first), and essentially be able to go get Lamar just for the value of his contract + the trade backs. 

[sparky151]

1 minute ago, Yin-Yang said:

Correct.

If a team with no FRPs signs Lamar to an offer sheet that Baltimore doesn’t match, that team would be forfeiting their next two future picks (likely 24’ and 25’) to Baltimore. 

So yeah, if you were Chicago and just executed that Panthers trade, you could then trade back again for more future picks (a 2024 or even 2025 first), and essentially be able to go get Lamar just for the value of his contract + the trade backs. 

That's not quite how it works. Teams have to provide first round picks equal to their draft slot or better. They can't provide worse picks unless the receiving team (Baltimore in this case) agrees.

[Soko]

2 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

That's not quite how it works. Teams have to provide first round picks equal to their draft slot or better. They can't provide worse picks unless the receiving team (Baltimore in this case) agrees.

Should clarify, I meant after the draft. 

[seminoles1]

Yeah, if Lamar still isn't signed after the draft, then I think teams in the top 10 (Las Vegas, Chicago, Atlanta) become more realistic options to go after Lamar.

[NudeTayne]

6 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

That's not quite how it works. Teams have to provide first round picks equal to their draft slot or better. They can't provide worse picks unless the receiving team (Baltimore in this case) agrees.

How does one calculate what a future first is worth? Would the Lions have to give more than 18 and a '24 first?

3 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

Should clarify, I meant after the draft. 

Is there something special about after the draft, or are you specifically eluding to that July 22 date?

[seminoles1]

Just now, NudeTayne said:

How does one calculate what a future first is worth? Would the Lions have to give more than 18 and a '24 first?

Is there something special about after the draft, or are you specifically eluding to that July 22 date?

I think there was a miscommunication between those 2.

The only thing special about after the draft is the draft picks you give up are hypothetical instead of real. It's much easier for Las Vegas/Atlanta/Chicago, teams who had bad luck, are in a bad division, and can reasonably expect to improve next season, to give up a 2024 and 2025 1st instead of #7/8/9 and a 2024 1st.

[Nbanflguy]

20 hours ago, MonserinNC said:

Dont do that bruh....the idea here is basically I should "shut up" when I clearly see a white quarterback get paid before a black one....and I probably will get banned from this website, for speaking on this issue as well.......the fact that I need to speak to you delicately when my people are the ones that are exploited is atrocious.... when they close this thread, and save your account while blocking me....what is the point?? It’s just telling another black man to shut up while hyping up Seminoles 1......another native tribe

You are wrong and looking for something that isn’t there. That’s the problem. 4 of the top 5 highest paid QB’s in the league are Russell Wilson, kyler Murray, deshaun watson, and Mahomes. All black men. 

[INbengalfan]

On 3/8/2023 at 10:48 AM, goldfishwars said:

 

DeCosta planning a city wide bake sale.......

[Soko]

15 minutes ago, NudeTayne said:

How does one calculate what a future first is worth? Would the Lions have to give more than 18 and a '24 first?

Is there something special about after the draft, or are you specifically eluding to that July 22 date?

I should clarify further because I made a mistake earlier: 

Everything has to be the original team’s draft pick or better. Meaning if you don’t have your original FRP, or a pick that’s better than your original, to offer Baltimore then you can’t make an offer (until the next draft in 2024, assuming you have a FRP in that draft, which some teams don’t). So let’s go through some scenarios:

You’re Detroit. Your original pick is 18. You also have 6. You have a FRP next year. You offer Lamar a contract, he signs, Baltimore doesn’t accept, then your original (18) and next year’s FRP goes to Baltimore. Your original FRP (18) or better, has been fulfilled. 

You’re Houston. Your original pick is 2. You also have 12. You have FRPs next year (yours and Cleveland’s). You sign Lamar, Baltimore doesn’t match, Baltimore gets your original this year (2) and your original next year. You still keep both of Cleveland’s FRPs.

Now you’re Chicago. You traded (2) overall, back to (9). You have yours and Carolina’s FRP next year. Meaning you don’t have your original FRP (2) or anything better, so you can’t make an offer until after the draft is over. 

Now let’s do a hypothetical. Let’s say you’re Carolina, you traded up from 9 to 2, but somehow kept your 2024 FRP. You can bid on Lamar, because even though you don’t have your original FRP, you have one that’s better. 

And then finally, anyone who doesn’t have a FRP in 2024, also can’t make an offer until they do. If you have two firsts this year but none next year, you can’t offer Lamar a contract unless you do some maneuvering with those picks. 

And again, this is all only for the non-exclusive tag offer sheet. Separately, you can work anything out with Baltimore. It’d basically be a sign-and-trade. Let’s say Baltimore really doesn’t want Lamar but no one is willing to offer two FRPs, we can make a deal where I give up one FRP and then I get the rights to Lamar (and thus am able to sign him long term). All that other stuff about a minimum two FRPs is only for signing him to an offer sheet that Baltimore can either match or decline.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Yin-Yang

[typecast]

1 hour ago, Yin-Yang said:

Separately, you can work anything out with Baltimore. It’d basically be a sign-and-trade.

Just to expand on this. The 2020 CBA added restrictions. Lamar/NFLPA must approve of any trade. Trade can't include other player's player contracts. Ravens draft compensation can't be more than the tendered amount, 2 FRPs for the nonexclusive tag.

Quote

Article 9 - Veteran Free Agency

Section 3 - Offer Sheet and Right of First Refusal Procedures

(h) No Consideration Between Clubs. There may be no consideration of any kind given by one Club to another Club in exchange for a Club’s decision to exercise or not to exercise its Right of First Refusal, or in exchange for a Club’s decision to submit or not to submit an Offer Sheet to a Restricted Free Agent or to make or not to make an offer to enter into a Player Contract with a Restricted Free Agent.

Nothing in this Subsection shall preclude a Prior Club from entering into a Player Contract with a player subject to a Tender, and subsequently trading that player under that Player Contract to another Club.

With respect to a trade involving any non-exclusive rights player subject to a Tender or Qualifying Offer who is a Nonexclusive Franchise Player or a Restricted Free Agent who is subject to a Qualifying Offer with Draft Choice Compensation, the following restrictions shall apply:

(i) the Clubs may not agree to draft choice consideration that is greater than the draft choice compensation specified for the Tender or Qualifying Offer;

(ii) the trade may not include the acquisition of another player’s Player Contract; and

(iii) the player and the NFLPA must approve in advance any such trade that takes place during the Signing Period.

With respect to a trade involving any non-exclusive rights player subject to a Tender or Qualifying Offer who is a Transition Player, or a Restricted Free Agent who is subject to a Qualifying Offer for a Right of First Refusal Only, the player and the NFLPA must approve in advance any such trade that takes place during the Signing Period.

The provisions of this Subsection (h) shall not apply to a trade involving any player who is subject to a Tender or Qualifying Offer that provides for exclusive negotiating rights for the Prior Club (i.e., an Exclusive Franchise Player or an “Exclusive Rights Player,” as defined in Article 8, Section 2 of this Agreement).

If a Club exercises its Right of First Refusal and matches an Offer Sheet, that Club may not trade that player to the Club that submitted the Offer Sheet for at least one calendar year, unless the player consents to such trade.

Lamar doesn't have to sign immediately. These are the following scenarios -

1. Lamar signs the tender and plays for the Ravens.
2. Lamar signs an offer sheet from a team capable of paying the two first round picks required by the non-exclusive franchise tag. Ravens have five days to match at that point. If a team doesn't have the picks before the draft, they can use picks in the next two drafts following the upcoming draft.
3. Another team works out a sign-and-trade where Lamar signs the tender and is immediately traded then extended. Ravens can get back upto 2 first round picks in compensation. No other players included.
4. Lamar doesn't sign the tender and sits out for the season.
5. Lamar doesn't sign the tender, the Ravens rescind the tag, and Lamar becomes a free agent.

Ngakoue was nonexclusive tagged by the Jags under the current CBA. He refused to sign before and after. Minnesota gave up a 2nd and a conditional 5th. Ngakoue agreed to an adjustment on his tender, taking 30% less money just to get out of Jacksonville.