The STL Cardinals Thread - Welcome to STL JJ!

[kgarrett12486]

5 hours ago, JonStark said:

He makes the lineups. He just finally moved Goldy out of the #2 spot, which I've been clamoring for since last year. Moving him down to 5 now is the right call, but he should've been in the 3 spot where he could drive guys in. You don't put a guy with 100 RBI potential there when we have plenty of other guys who fit that role better.

Also, when a fast guy like Scott continues to drive the ball in the air, it's up to him and the hitting coach to work with him on getting it on the ground more. This is a minor one but just another example of him being completely lost on how to manage his guys.

He's also the leader. When guys aren't hitting in a game, you know it's gonna be that way for the full game. They get down on themselves and there is no fight in the team, and that falls on him. 

Not to mention the couple dozen times already this year I've asked myself what is he doing real time, only to have it hurt us. Pitching to Contreras the other day was just one example. MIL walked our Contreras (who is producing but not at the level of theirs) and got out of the inning. Same scenario and we pitch to him, and surprise he hurts us.

He's not an MLB manager. Why we hired (and extended him) with his lack of proven experience beforehand still blows my mind. 

 

I'm sorry, but I disagree with just about everything in the bold. Yes, he sets the line-up, but he's not the one constructing the roster. He's an extension of the FO and that's about it. We're paying Paul Goldschmidt to be a MOT bat, so he needs to be hitting 2-4. Him batting 2nd vs. 3rd is irrelevant. Plenty of teams across MLB deploy their best hitter in the #2 spot. There is actually plenty of data out there to show it makes more sense to bat your best hitter in the 2 spot, as you get them potentially an extra AB per game. This team theoretically has plenty of other players capable of being hitters capable of driving in runners. When you bat him second and Arendao 4th, you're also giving a young player (Gorman in this case) the best opportunity to see pitches to hit. 

Go back and look at 2022 Paul Goldschimdt. he was hitting .170 and had an OPS under .600 at this point in the season. He then went on to win the MVP. You have to give him every opportunity to figure it out, or this team is going no where. I was actually shocked to see them move Goldy down this quick (even though i was calling for it too). 

Victor Scott wasn't even going to be on this team before the Carlson injury. You can only coach up a player so much and then it's on them to start making the adjustments. Scott didn't do that (and it wasn't expected given his age and this being his first taste) and that's why he's heading down. That's not on the staff, especially when the player said the coaching staff was doing everything they could to help him make the adjustments. 

LIS, this isn't something that has just popped up this year. This is a dated issue of players not performing up to their abilities. I've seen enough other STL franchises go through this exact thing to realize it's not a coaching change that makes the difference, it's an overhaul of the roster, specifically the core group. 

 

[JonStark]

6 hours ago, kgarrett12486 said:

I'm sorry, but I disagree with just about everything in the bold. Yes, he sets the line-up, but he's not the one constructing the roster. He's an extension of the FO and that's about it. We're paying Paul Goldschmidt to be a MOT bat, so he needs to be hitting 2-4. Him batting 2nd vs. 3rd is irrelevant. Plenty of teams across MLB deploy their best hitter in the #2 spot. There is actually plenty of data out there to show it makes more sense to bat your best hitter in the 2 spot, as you get them potentially an extra AB per game. This team theoretically has plenty of other players capable of being hitters capable of driving in runners. When you bat him second and Arendao 4th, you're also giving a young player (Gorman in this case) the best opportunity to see pitches to hit. 

Go back and look at 2022 Paul Goldschimdt. he was hitting .170 and had an OPS under .600 at this point in the season. He then went on to win the MVP. You have to give him every opportunity to figure it out, or this team is going no where. I was actually shocked to see them move Goldy down this quick (even though i was calling for it too). 

Victor Scott wasn't even going to be on this team before the Carlson injury. You can only coach up a player so much and then it's on them to start making the adjustments. Scott didn't do that (and it wasn't expected given his age and this being his first taste) and that's why he's heading down. That's not on the staff, especially when the player said the coaching staff was doing everything they could to help him make the adjustments. 

LIS, this isn't something that has just popped up this year. This is a dated issue of players not performing up to their abilities. I've seen enough other STL franchises go through this exact thing to realize it's not a coaching change that makes the difference, it's an overhaul of the roster, specifically the core group. 

 

What you're paying someone is irrelevant if it doesn't give you the best chance to win, especially when we are underperforming this bad dating back to last season. If he needs to work out of a slump, you move him around in the order just like anyone else. No one is saying to bench him and that move can be short lived as soon as he starts to come around.

Also, I don't think 2nd vs 3rd is irrelevant. If he's in the 3 spot, there's an extra batter in front of him to possibly drive in which he has a history of succeeding in. I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on the difference in spots, but I don't think (not 100% sure) that Goldy wasn't batting in the 2 spot when he won MVP. 

I'll concede the Scott thing as I said it was minor and must have missed his quote you referenced. 

The guy just makes questionable call after questionable call. He wasn't ready to move right into a big league manager role, and his ego gets int he way of him learning from his mistakes. 

On another note, has anyone see Yadi? I was hoping he'd be in the dugout more and that would be the move if Oli got canned but I can't remember seeing him yet. Descalso wouldn't be a bad option though. 

[kgarrett12486]

12 hours ago, JonStark said:

What you're paying someone is irrelevant if it doesn't give you the best chance to win, especially when we are underperforming this bad dating back to last season. If he needs to work out of a slump, you move him around in the order just like anyone else. No one is saying to bench him and that move can be short lived as soon as he starts to come around.

Also, I don't think 2nd vs 3rd is irrelevant. If he's in the 3 spot, there's an extra batter in front of him to possibly drive in which he has a history of succeeding in. I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on the difference in spots, but I don't think (not 100% sure) that Goldy wasn't batting in the 2 spot when he won MVP. 

I'll concede the Scott thing as I said it was minor and must have missed his quote you referenced. 

The guy just makes questionable call after questionable call. He wasn't ready to move right into a big league manager role, and his ego gets int he way of him learning from his mistakes.  

While we'd like to believe it doesn't matter, reality is it does in just about every major sports league (MLB included). It 100% matters to this FO being as budget conscious as they are. If they're payig a guy big money to be a MOTO bat, they fully expect hm to be in that spot for majority of the time. Now that may change with Goldy looking like he's in decline and being in the last year of the deal, but he was never gonna be hitting anywhere other than 2-5th this season to start. The FO wouldn't of let that happen and Oli is essentially just an extension of them on the field. 

Oli moved Goldy down in the line-up, so it's not like it didn't happen. I can understand maybe wanting it to happen a few games or so earlier this year, but who were they going to hit there? Arenado, Gorman, Walker (who are all your big RBI/power guys) weren't hitting either and Nootbaar was still hurt, Donny is locked into leadoff, Scott wasn't hitting or getting on base and I don't think they want to put that pressure on Winn to start. The only choice was Contreras, which is what they're doing now. 

Definitely gonna disagree with the 2nd/3rd spot discussion. LIS, there is good data out there to support him being in the #2 spot. He spent about equal time in that 2022 season hitting 2nd and 3rd. 

I'm not here to defend Oli, as I agree he makes some questionable decisions. I've said it before though, I think the modern MLB manager really doesn't impact the game that much though and again I believe Oli is just a 'yes' man for this FO. I always go back to that I think they made the wrong decision letting Skip Shumaker leave and not naming him the manager at the time. 

 

[kgarrett12486]

12 hours ago, JonStark said:

On another note, has anyone see Yadi? I was hoping he'd be in the dugout more and that would be the move if Oli got canned but I can't remember seeing him yet. Descalso wouldn't be a bad option though. 

He's been in the dominican still. He's got a lot of business ventures there and spends majority of time there. I don't understand this sentiment/fascination with Yadi being the next manager. The guy clearly doesn't want to invest the majority of his time into the coaching role, so why would we just hand him the job? I don't think it'll be a good fit if we go that path. 

[CWood21]

5 minutes ago, kgarrett12486 said:

While we'd like to believe it doesn't matter, reality is it does in just about every major sports league (MLB included). It 100% matters to this FO being as budget conscious as they are. If they're payig a guy big money to be a MOTO bat, they fully expect hm to be in that spot for majority of the time. Now that may change with Goldy looking like he's in decline and being in the last year of the deal, but he was never gonna be hitting anywhere other than 2-5th this season to start. The FO wouldn't of let that happen and Oli is essentially just an extension of them on the field. 

To me, that stat sticks out to me.  Milwaukee has won't the division 3 times since 2017.  The Cardinals have won it twice.  The Cardinals aren't a small market team like Milwaukee, yet Milwaukee has more sustained success than St. Louis has.  That's a problem.

[JonStark]

1 minute ago, kgarrett12486 said:

He's been in the dominican still. He's got a lot of business ventures there and spends majority of time there. I don't understand this sentiment/fascination with Yadi being the next manager. The guy clearly doesn't want to invest the majority of his time into the coaching role, so why would we just hand him the job? I don't think it'll be a good fit if we go that path. 

I think it's that Yadi has a ton of baseball knowledge that Oli doesn't (analytics will only take you so far) and won't just be a 'yes' man like you said. That being said, I think the majority of hope was banking on the fact that he would want it. No one wants him to come in if he's not committing to it 100%. 

[StLunatic88]

4 hours ago, CWood21 said:

To me, that stat sticks out to me.  Milwaukee has won't the division 3 times since 2017.  The Cardinals have won it twice.  The Cardinals aren't a small market team like Milwaukee, yet Milwaukee has more sustained success than St. Louis has.  That's a problem.

3 Division titles in 7 years? I think you and I have a different definition of 'sustained success'

[kgarrett12486]

5 hours ago, JonStark said:

I think it's that Yadi has a ton of baseball knowledge that Oli doesn't (analytics will only take you so far) and won't just be a 'yes' man like you said. That being said, I think the majority of hope was banking on the fact that he would want it. No one wants him to come in if he's not committing to it 100%. 

I'd rather they actually go after Shumaker than Yadi honestly.

Skip's in the final year with the Marlins because their new ownership group has ruined what they built. 

[CWood21]

4 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

3 Division titles in 7 years? I think you and I have a different definition of 'sustained success'

When they're doing it with a bit over half the payroll that St. Louis is doing, I'd argue they've been more successful.  Other than their COVID year, they've had 1 losing season.  Their worst season (outside of COVID year) was an 86 win seasons.  They've got an NLCS appearance and made the playoffs 5 out of 6 seasons since 2017.  The Cardinals have 1 NLCS appearance and are coming off a season in which they won 71 games.  They're currently on pace to win 70 games this year.

[StLunatic88]

31 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

When they're doing it with a bit over half the payroll that St. Louis is doing, I'd argue they've been more successful.  Other than their COVID year, they've had 1 losing season.  Their worst season (outside of COVID year) was an 86 win seasons.  They've got an NLCS appearance and made the playoffs 5 out of 6 seasons since 2017.  The Cardinals have 1 NLCS appearance and are coming off a season in which they won 71 games.  They're currently on pace to win 70 games this year.

Again “sustained success” is what I am talking about. I never was claiming the Cardinals were better, just that I wouldn’t call 3/7 Division Championships in what everyone around here complains is the “weakest division in baseball” every time it suits their argument.

[twslhs20]

What we are paying a player is irrelevant. Efficient business recognize sunk cost. Guys should be hitting where they are most effective in the order. Regardless of salary.

[ttitansfan4life]

God this team is absolute trash. Blow it all up. 

[holt_bruce81]

I think Oli gets fired at seasons end. I don’t care about the whole extension thing at all. Means nothing IMO. 

The coaching in this organization is so bad. Love seeing ex-Cardinals excel on other teams. Keep them coming. The more success they have, the hotter the seats get for people in this organization. 

 

[holt_bruce81]

Walker sent down. We’re gonna ruin him. 

[naptownskinsfan]

Going to be traveling to St Louis July 11-14 with the other half for her to do a hobby retreat, and I am planning to go to the Cards/Cubs series at least Friday and Saturday- iffy on if we have time on Sunday.  

Best seats to watch the game from?  My season tickets at Camden Yards were 3B side just off the outside of the dugout, 1B side in the middle of the dugout and now in LF, so those are the angles I am used to seeing.  Also, any specific food recommendations at the stadium would be great, as well as anything else to see in the city while there.  We’re staying in Kirkwood.