Over 10,000 days since Dallas last won a Super Bowl... what went wrong?

[notthatbluestuff]

3 minutes ago, ET80 said:

So - let's test this out real quick. Was there another sports team in the 90s with the same (or... more) success than the Cowboys of the 90s?

Yeah. There was.

Now... honest answers only: Are the current Chicago Bulls as marketable as the current Dallas Cowboys?

  Hide contents

Answer: No. Not at all.

 

To your point, the Spurs have had by far the most success of any Texas team since the 90s 'Boys, and they're about to get Wembanyama. They're still nowhere near the draw the Dallas Cowboys represent.

[dll2000]

43 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Let’s take into consideration he’s got the most recognizable brand in sports - prior to him buying the Cowboys, the New York Yankees and Los Angeles Lakers held that title. Since he’s been in the picture, he’s overtaken both, despite having geographical disadvantages and performance issues.

New York and Los Angeles are two of the biggest and most notable cities in the world - their marketing builds itself based on that, their draw extends beyond the Yankees and Lakers and infiltrates their other teams (Giants, Knicks, Dodgers, Rams, Kings, etc). Those other teams in those markets have had windows of dominance in this 25 year space since the last Dallas SB (specifically the Lakers and Yankees, teams 2/3 on the list of most valuable brands in sports). Yet, it’s still Dallas that holds the top spot.

Lakers and Yankees have another geographical advantage - basketball and baseball both have a significant international appeal, and both teams had key players that fed into that appeal (Hidiki Matsui, Pau Gasou most notably come to mind - amongst others). Sure, it’s not Kobe or Jeter (two international stars in their own right, mich bigger than anyone who played for the Cowboys) but Spain was pro Lakers because of Pau, and Japan was pro Yankees because of Matsui (or - Japan was pro Seattle because of Ichiro and it showed financially for the Mariners, a traditionally underwhelming franchise in terms of performance).

Dallas? It’s not even the biggest city in Texas (that would be Houston) and even though the Dallas Mavericks have been more successful in this window (along with having a very well known owner in Mark Cuban) its marketing ability outside of Dallas is nowhere near where the Cowboys were. There is no Derek Jeter or Kobe Bryant the Cowboys can leverage, there is no international player the Cowboys can tout (maybe Dat Nguyen in the early 00s) but… other franchises in other sports have so much more appeal in just about every single aspect.

Yet - despite all of those disadvantages - Cowboys are the most valuable franchise in sports. Hate Jerruh all you want, getting to the top of the top isn’t something achieved by happenstance. You have to make that happen.

 

In U.S. NFL football as become by far number 1 for sports entertainment.  It dominates ratings.  The draft is more popular than major games for other sports.

But I am not saying don't give Jerry credit.  He deserves a lot of credit for his success.  I am just saying there are other historical factors assisting him.  

I think Dallas is also one of top revenue producing teams outside of what collective teams share.   He deserves credit for that as well.

 

 

 

[dll2000]

7 minutes ago, ET80 said:

So - let's test this out real quick. Was there another sports team in the 90s with the same (or... more) success than the Cowboys of the 90s?

Yeah. There was.

Now... honest answers only: Are the current Chicago Bulls as marketable as the current Dallas Cowboys?

  Hide contents

Answer: No. Not at all.

 

Bulls did build a huge international following due to those years and kept a lot of it.  They haven't given those fans much to root for since.  

But NBA is different than NFL.

It is big internationally, particularly in China, but has fallen off a lot in popularity in U.S. since Michael Jordan day.  A lot.  A huge drop in recent years.  Their ratings are nothing like they used to be.  The player recognition is way down.  Everything.  

Whilst the NFL has grown a lot in same time, not just Dallas.

 

 

 

[dll2000]

Example is me.  I am representative of many in my age bracket.  

  I am still a Bulls fan ostensibly.  I owned sky blue Air Jordans in 80s.  (Wish I still had them).   I attended two NBA finals games where Bulls won it.   Michael Jordan jumped over me and pumped his fist and confetti came down.

I used to watch nearly every game.  

I haven't watched an NBA game of any kind in 4 or 5 years.  Maybe more.  

But I watch Bears whether they suck or they are good.   I watch a lot of other NFL games too.   I have gamepass.

There has been a change in habits.  

 

[dll2000]

Now NBA maybe playing a long game.  Obviously the China market is quite large and their economy has radically changed in recent years - much in thanks to U.S. policy.

There are many cities in China with millions of people living there.

So I guess we'll see what happens with sports long term.   You never know.   Baseball, boxing and horseracing were top game for a long time, nobody at time thought that would change.

  

 

[Superduperman]

55 minutes ago, TVScout said:

Parcells?

Great coach obv but he was past his prime, and saddled with bad QBs

[ET80]

43 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

So I guess we'll see what happens with sports long term. 

Side note: These sort of conversations are my favorite, because it involves theory and use case testing. So I thank you for going down this rabbit hole with me.

I have a theory I'd like to submit: Jerruh is successful for building the Cowboys to what they are... because he never let one person become bigger than the Star. 

If you look at dynasties, you'll see that they have one "Cult of Personality" if you will, a person who transcended the team and the sport to become a celebrity and revered presence:

60s Packers - Vince Lombardi

60s Celtics - Bill Russell

70s Steelers - Mean Joe Greene

70s Lakers - Kareem Abdul-Jaabar

80s 49ers - Joe Montana

80s Lakers - Magic Johnson

90s Bulls - Michael Jordan

90s Kings - Wayne Gretzky

00s Yankees - Derek Jeter

00s Patriots - Tom Brady

10s Warriors - Steph Curry

(In the 10s, you also have LeBron James - who was a similar Cult of Personality for a few teams). 

Rolling this back to the 90s Cowboys - did they have a Jordan? A Magic? A Jeter? They had a bunch of great players - Aikman, Smith, Irvin - but I almost feel like we were too busy explaining why those guys weren't as good as their counterparts vs associating them as the avatar of their era. Now, whether this is a function of Jerruh or not can be discussed (I mean, maybe Jimmy Johnson becomes the avatar if he's still there for that run) but I think there's a definitive correlation to the lack of a Cult of Personality giving the Cowboys (and by proxy, Jerruh) the staying power they have beyond the 90s.

Does that logic hold for you? Is this a reasonable viewpoint?

 

[WheatieMan]

I also read that MLB is expanding in Europe. Coupled with the pacing changes, it may make inroads in countries where Cricket isn’t already a national past time (south central Asia and Oceania). It’s already number two in the Carribean behind soccer. And it is number one in Japan and South Korea. 

The NBA has obviously made inroads in China and Eastern Europe. It’s popular in Spain and France as well of course. But it will be hard to make inroads in beyond China and Continental Europe. I don’t think the economy is there yet to play games in Africa. It’s made some progress in South America but those are very tough places to grow an American sport.

The NFL is still fighting an uphill battle due to the lack of international players. They obviously need to push in the UK and continental Europe as well as Down Under. Besides Europe and West Africa, they need to play games Down Under, as well as Canada and Mexico. I don’t think China is realistic. Focus on Europe and North America. The goose will be cooked once the demographic time bombs are in full effect. If the NFL is unable to penetrate in Africa, there will be no players left in the pool besides Texas and south eastern states, and handful of other big markets with thriving nearby suburbs. That’s not even factoring in the growing long term health concerns.

Edited June 22, 2023 by WheatieMan

[dll2000]

3 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Side note: These sort of conversations are my favorite, because it involves theory and use case testing. So I thank you for going down this rabbit hole with me.

I have a theory I'd like to submit: Jerruh is successful for building the Cowboys to what they are... because he never let one person become bigger than the Star. 

If you look at dynasties, you'll see that they have one "Cult of Personality" if you will, a person who transcended the team and the sport to become a celebrity and revered presence:

60s Packers - Vince Lombardi

60s Celtics - Bill Russell

70s Steelers - Mean Joe Greene

70s Lakers - Kareem Abdul-Jaabar

80s 49ers - Joe Montana

80s Lakers - Magic Johnson

90s Bulls - Michael Jordan

00s Yankees - Derek Jeter

00s Patriots - Tom Brady

10s Warriors - Steph Curry

(In the 10s, you also have LeBron James - who was a similar Cult of Personality for a few teams). 

Rolling this back to the 90s Cowboys - did they have a Jordan? A Magic? A Jeter? They had a bunch of great players - Aikman, Smith, Irvin - but I almost feel like we were too busy explaining why those guys weren't as good as their counterparts vs associating them as the avatar of their era. Now, whether this is a function of Jerruh or not can be discussed (I mean, maybe Jimmy Johnson becomes the avatar if he's still there for that run) but I think there's a definitive correlation to the lack of a Cult of Personality giving the Cowboys (and by proxy, Jerruh) the staying power they have beyond the 90s.

Does that logic hold for you? Is this a reasonable viewpoint?

 

Yes.

It is all a factor and some mean more to some than others.

I mean there a whole bunch of Bears fans from other states that talk to me.  Some of have fairly large youtube channels or podcasts.

You ask them why they are Bears fans?  They say when they were kids they were huge Walter Payton fans.

But they stayed after.   And their kids are Bears fans now.   Even though they aren't in Illinois.

I liked Raiders for a time because on Sat. mornings during cartoons they used to play 'Winds of Autumn' to music with Raiders highlights and it was super cool.   Then '85 Bears hit and since I am in Illinois I have been a Bears fan ever since.

But my brother is a huge Cowboys fan and has been since he was a kid.

 

 

[WheatieMan]

6 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Side note: These sort of conversations are my favorite, because it involves theory and use case testing. So I thank you for going down this rabbit hole with me.

I have a theory I'd like to submit: Jerruh is successful for building the Cowboys to what they are... because he never let one person become bigger than the Star. 

If you look at dynasties, you'll see that they have one "Cult of Personality" if you will, a person who transcended the team and the sport to become a celebrity and revered presence:

60s Packers - Vince Lombardi

60s Celtics - Bill Russell

70s Steelers - Mean Joe Greene

70s Lakers - Kareem Abdul-Jaabar

80s 49ers - Joe Montana

80s Lakers - Magic Johnson

90s Bulls - Michael Jordan

90s Kings - Wayne Gretzky

00s Yankees - Derek Jeter

00s Patriots - Tom Brady

10s Warriors - Steph Curry

(In the 10s, you also have LeBron James - who was a similar Cult of Personality for a few teams). 

Rolling this back to the 90s Cowboys - did they have a Jordan? A Magic? A Jeter? They had a bunch of great players - Aikman, Smith, Irvin - but I almost feel like we were too busy explaining why those guys weren't as good as their counterparts vs associating them as the avatar of their era. Now, whether this is a function of Jerruh or not can be discussed (I mean, maybe Jimmy Johnson becomes the avatar if he's still there for that run) but I think there's a definitive correlation to the lack of a Cult of Personality giving the Cowboys (and by proxy, Jerruh) the staying power they have beyond the 90s.

Does that logic hold for you? Is this a reasonable viewpoint?

 

No… I don’t see how Jimmy isn’t or wasn’t that figure and you even mention him.

Jerruh deserves the credit. They’ve won enough games. They play in the biggest football market, more so than Miami and LA/NY where the NFL was never number 1 and never will be. A lot of it is happenstance (market and the sport’s popularity), but it’s Jerruh doing nearly everything correctly from a branding standpoint.

However, the team has to consistently win, or at least be a .500 team every year, like the Yankees or Lakers. They just don’t have the history of greatness that those other two franchises have.

[dll2000]

A lot of people were briefly Broncos fans because of Tim Tebow when he made that mini run turning that team around. 

I heard it everywhere I went that year.   From women and men.  People loved him.   I had neighbors (western Chicago burbs) that had Tebow jerseys.  I went to Alabama for vacation and people were talking about him there.    

If he somehow became good - they may have stayed.

 

[ET80]

20 minutes ago, WheatieMan said:

No… I don’t see how Jimmy isn’t or wasn’t that figure and you even mention him.

The only reason I don't mention him is because one of those three championships was won by Barry Switzer. I'll fully concede that Switzer was driving the fastest car in the field and he was simply along for the ride - but to the casual fan (aka - the majority of the money made by any team) that was a Dallas team that was the sum of its parts.

[ET80]

27 minutes ago, WheatieMan said:

Jerruh deserves the credit. They’ve won enough games. They play in the biggest football market

I challenge the part in bold. What makes Dallas the biggest football market?

[Nabbs4u]

Had Jerry not got into a  pissing contest about who really was responsible and should get the credit for building that Dynasty aka shut up and let Jimmy do his thing. I am 100% convinced the 90's Cowboys would of won 5 or 6 SB! 

Thank you for being You! May you live to be a 100 and still have the brain of a 40 year old! 🍺

[WheatieMan]

2 hours ago, ET80 said:

I challenge the part in bold. What makes Dallas the biggest football market?

Football is number one in Texas. Forget about raw Nielson ratings or other “objective” metrics. Football transcends the culture in Texas and the deep south. While it isn’t the cult that it may be in places like Tuscaloosa or Athens, it’s clearly the number one sport in Dallas. It just isn’t the case in LA or NY. Having two teams is dilutive. Having way too many other options not only in terms of sports detracts from the NFL teams. That’s why Miami, LA, NYC immediately come off the draft board at least at number 1. If you aren’t the number one sports teams in your market from a culture standpoint, you are not transcending anything. So however the WSJ or Forbes wants to value NYG or LAR is irrelevant. So yes, while you can make a case for Houston, Atlanta, TB, or whatever comparable city, Dallas is the number one football market when you factor in the respective franchises that play in those towns. Why are we even debating when Dallas has been the highest rated team almost year after year despite playing barely above .500 ball?

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by WheatieMan