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The MVP race

Steelersfan43

By Steelersfan43
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NoFlyZone

NoFlyZone

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, NYRaider said:

If we're going to use 40+ TD / 12+ win thresholds that the past 5 MVP's have hit only Jalen Hurts and Dak Prescott are currently on pace to hit both.

And for Hurts it’s mostly because his line is unstoppable 1-2 yard sneak “rushing” TDs. Seems unworthy of the MVP conversation. 

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Soggust

Soggust

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, TecmoSuperJoe said:

Typically the NFL doesn't award players for victims of a negative circumstance. Nor are players penalized for benefiting off a fortuitous situation. 

Coach of the year is the exception, but I’m on a crusade to change that too. 

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Art_Vandalay

Art_Vandalay

Posted
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1 hour ago, TecmoSuperJoe said:

Then no one should ever win MVP then, because many former winners in a very similar circumstance the same detracting logic could be applied to. 

"Well if player X had this, this, and this in their favor they'd be an MVP too. They'd be in the HOF too..."

Typically the NFL doesn't award players for victims of a negative circumstance. Nor are players penalized for benefiting off a fortuitous situation. That would in-itself turn into a very slippery slope where the lines in the sand could be infinitely moved due to an infinite juggling of hypotheticals. The production a player puts up is the production. Situation is irrelevant. 

If Brock goes down for the year and Darnold comes in, do you feel like the season’s over? … No, you don’t. You’d obviously feel like it would be a tougher road but you know that the team is littered with All-Pros and HOFers and you still have a shot.

If Mahomes, Dak, Hurts, Tua go down, you know their season is done. That’s the definition of valuable. Production and wins matter, but the situation is very very relevant.

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Forge

Forge

Posted
Posted
17 minutes ago, Art_Vandalay said:

If Brock goes down for the year and Darnold comes in, do you feel like the season’s over? … No, you don’t. You’d obviously feel like it would be a tougher road but you know that the team is littered with All-Pros and HOFers and you still have a shot.

If Mahomes, Dak, Hurts, Tua go down, you know their season is done. That’s the definition of valuable. Production and wins matter, but the situation is very very relevant.

Just so I'm clear, nobody with a good backup should ever win the MVP? 

Also, should a guy who has slightly lesser stats get more credit for the award if his backup is worse than the guy with better stats? I mean, Cooper Rush is 5-1 as a starter. He's not a black hole or anything. So does Dak get less credit than mahomes since Patrick's backup is Blaine gabbert?

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Trojan

Trojan

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Forge said:

Just so I'm clear, nobody with a good backup should ever win the MVP? 

Joe Montana in 1989 and 1990 (Steve Young back up)
Steve Young 1992 (Joe Montana back up) and 1994 (Elvis Grbac back up [also Bill Musgrave future OC])
Brett Farve in 1995 and 1996 (Jim McMahon back up [also future HC Doug Pederson]) and 1997 Steve Bono backed him up and he was also backup on at least some of the Montana/Young teams
Kurt Warner in 1999 was the backup no one expected lol and in 2001 had Marc Bulger as backup

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Art_Vandalay

Art_Vandalay

Posted
Posted
23 minutes ago, Forge said:

Just so I'm clear, nobody with a good backup should ever win the MVP? 

Also, should a guy who has slightly lesser stats get more credit for the award if his backup is worse than the guy with better stats? I mean, Cooper Rush is 5-1 as a starter. He's not a black hole or anything. So does Dak get less credit than mahomes since Patrick's backup is Blaine gabbert?

If a team is full of All-Pros / HOFers and the QB isn’t either of those, they should not win MVP.

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Forge

Forge

Posted
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27 minutes ago, Art_Vandalay said:

If a team is full of All-Pros / HOFers and the QB isn’t either of those, they should not win MVP.

Thats not an answer to what I asked. 

Let's try it a different tact and abandon the concept of a backup determining who can win an MVP like we did with the concept that a network's marketing department should be in charge of determining who is an MVP candidate. 

Is there a specific number of all pro's or future hall of famers? Do they have to be in their prime? How do we litigate how much talent is too much talent for a QB to win an MVP? Should warner have not won his first MVP? He hadn't been an all pro yet and he was surrounded by multiple all pros and hall of famers. 

Do previous years All pros dictate who is eligible for a current year's MVP when previous seasons have nothing to do with the current season? Seems convenient for Hurts. 

Does the defensive side of the ball count in terms of the quality of a roster that is eligible for an MVP award? 

Are the niners the only team that has a roster talented enough to not allow for their QB to be considered an MVP candidate? Dak has never been an all pro. 

 

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TecmoSuperJoe

TecmoSuperJoe

Posted
Posted
46 minutes ago, Art_Vandalay said:

If Brock goes down for the year and Darnold comes in, do you feel like the season’s over? … No, you don’t. You’d obviously feel like it would be a tougher road but you know that the team is littered with All-Pros and HOFers and you still have a shot.

If Mahomes, Dak, Hurts, Tua go down, you know their season is done. That’s the definition of valuable. Production and wins matter, but the situation is very very relevant.

So in hindsight was Joe Montana's MVP in '89 invalid because he had Steve Young backing him up, and the season wasn't automatically over if he went down??? 

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TecmoSuperJoe

TecmoSuperJoe

Posted
Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Art_Vandalay said:

If a team is full of All-Pros / HOFers and the QB isn’t either of those, they should not win MVP.

Brock is in his second season playing lights out. You have no idea how many All-Pro, Pro Bowl, or MVP awards he can rack up at this point. 

Steve Young, Joe Montana, Peyton Manning, etc. don't stack awards/rings in the first place without their annually stellar cast they had at their disposal. 

Edited by TecmoSuperJoe
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Art_Vandalay

Art_Vandalay

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Posted

If a player goes down and the team is still really good then you are not the most valuable player in the entire league. Propose any hypothetical you want. All I’m doing is going by the definition of “Valuable.” Patrick Mahomes throwing for over 5000 yards to Travis Kelce and a handful average guys while winning 14 games. That’s valuable.

”So you’re telling me someone should be penalized for having a great team around them?” If we’re talking about an award called “The Most *Valuable* Player in the league”, then yes, having a juggernaut of a team should go against their case for “The Most *Valuable* Player in the league.” I mean you gotta at least be a top 3 player on your own team lol

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