The MVP race

[jonnguy2015]

6 minutes ago, Soko said:

49ers fans have been saying Aiyuk was about to breakout as the team’s number one for a couple years. 

Elevating a guy’s production past Jimmy G levels isn’t really as big a flex as you think.

Fans always hype up their team's players. Purdy made that hype reality

[Soko]

1 minute ago, Art_Vandalay said:

It should've been part of the criteria. My point is that if everything around you is elite, it hurts how valuable you are to your team.

Certainly. If all other things were equal, that could be a major determining factor.

But it’s not a top tier consideration for MVP. Like, if you woke up from a coma this morning, decided to catch up on the NFL, and join the MVP consideration - your first criteria isn’t strength of cast. You’d look at the best teams and look at the stats of those QBs. You’d probably look at things like schedule and H2H play after that. Then you’d probably get into casts. I say “you”, but I mean the generic fan/voter.

Being the best statistical QB (or close to it) + having a really good record has historically been the most important factors, so naturally they’ll be weighed the heaviest. Other factors do matter, but crossing a guy’s name out (who has a great record, great stats, and has beaten the other candidates H2H) because of cast, just isn’t really how things have been done. 

If you want to say how it should be vs how it actually is, sure.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 hour ago, Soggust said:

Jk jk I just threw that out there I didn't really think it through.

I guess I kind of think of them pretty similarly overall. I'll take the Cowboys talent and the Ravens production lol. I generally think of Pollard > Edwards being the big difference, but maybe you are right in hindsight, unfortunately. 

Generally speaking Pollard is better than GUs, but this year Pollard has been really underachieving while Gus has been his normal "do nothing special but get 5ypc and be dominant in the red zone". He's vultured a lot of touchdowns, too.

[Soko]

3 minutes ago, jonnguy2015 said:

Fans always hype up their team's players. Purdy made that hype reality

Again, going from Jimmy to Purdy will do that. Give Aiyuk his credit for improving himself as a player, he deserves the brunt of that credit. My main point though was responding to “all but the most diehard 49ers fans would say a low #1”, when that’s not really the case. Those watching him have really been saying he’s going to breakout for a couple years. 

And, as far as I’ve seen, Aiyuk hardly gets brought up as a case against Purdy. It’s mostly CMC. Not saying I agree or disagree with anything in that discussion, but the biggest differentiators for Purdy vs the other MVP candidates right now are McCaffrey, Shanahan, and the 49ers defense. 

[bigbadbuff]

1 hour ago, typecast said:

"Allen has 17 more touchdowns than turnovers this year... do you know how many players have a better margin than that? One. Dak Prescott."

I get he's going through the gymnastics here, but Hurts and Purdy are also at 17 total touchdowns minus turnovers.

Right but all 3 of those guys are MVP candidates and one is being ripped consistently. Just weird is all. Those other 3 are having good seasons and deserve the MVP talk, it’s just exhausting when Allen is consistently ripped. 
 

He’s walked off the field with a lead under 2 and half minutes left in I think 3 or 4 games this season and the defense and coaching (12 men on a missed fg) have let him down. They win 2 of those the Bills are 8-4 and then what’s the narrative?

[Soko]

9 minutes ago, bigbadbuff said:

Right but all 3 of those guys are MVP candidates and one is being ripped consistently. Just weird is all. Those other 3 are having good seasons and deserve the MVP talk, it’s just exhausting when Allen is consistently ripped. 
 

He’s walked off the field with a lead under 2 and half minutes left in I think 3 or 4 games this season and the defense and coaching (12 men on a missed fg) have let him down. They win 2 of those the Bills are 8-4 and then what’s the narrative?

In all fairness, two of those games they also had a chance in OT to win the game and didn’t score any points. 

In losses, the offense scored 16, 20, 25, 18, 22, and 34. In wins, the defense gave up 10, 3, 20, 9, 18, and 6. Something’s up.

[typecast]

1 hour ago, JIllg said:

Think about amazing quarterbacks with crazy supporting casts

Yea, I went through the teams and noted the primary weapons. You guys can nitpick the level of talent they are (e.g. Proehl for the 99 Lambs) or if I missed someone (e.g. Jennings for the 23 49ers)

• 2023 Purdy - CMC, Aiyuk, Deebo, Kittle
• 2023 Dak - Pollard, Lamb, Cooks, Ferguson
• 2023 Hurts - Swift, Brown, Smith, Goedert
• 2023 Tua - Mostert, Achane, Tyreek, Waddle
• 2022 Mahomes - Pacheco/CEH/McKinnon, JuJu, MVS, Kelce
• 2021 Rodgers - Dillon, Jones, Adams, Lazard
• 2020 Rodgers - Jones, Adams, MVS, Tonyan
• 2019 Lamar - Ingram, Edwards, Brown, Andrews
• 2018 Mahomes - Hunt, Hill, Watkins, Kelce
• 2017 Brady - Lewis, Cooks, Amendola, Gronk
• 2016 Ryan - Freeman, Coleman, Jones, Sanu, Gabriel
• 2013 Peyton - Moreno, D.Thomas, Decker, Welker, J.Thomas
• 2011 Rodgers - Grant/Starks, Nelson, Jennings, Jones, Finley
• 2009 Peyton - Addai, Wayne, Garcon, Collie, Clark
• 2007 Brady - Maroney, Moss, Welker, Stallworth
• 2004 Peyton - Edge, Harrison, Wayne, Stokely, Clark, Pollard
• 2003 McNair - George, Mason, McCareins, Bennett
• 2000 Gannon - Garner, Rice, Brown, Porter
• 1999 Warner - Faulk, Bruce, Holt, Hakim, Proehl
• 1997 Favre - Levens, Freeman, Brooks, Chmura
• 1994 Young - Watters, Rice, Taylor, Jones
• 1990 Montana - Craig, Rathman, Rice, Taylor, Jones
• 1988 Esiason - Woods, Brooks, Brown, McGee, Holman
• 1987 Elway - Winder, Johnson, Nattiel
• 1984 Marino - Bennett, Nathan, Clayton, Duper
• 1983 Theismann - Riggens, Washington, Brown, Monk
• 1981 Anderson - Johnson, Collinsworth, Curtis, Ross
• 1980 Sipe - M.Pruitt, Logan, Rucker, Newsome
• 1978 Bradshaw - Harris, Bleier, Swann, Stallworth, Grossman/Cunningham

Edited December 8, 2023 by typecast

[Jakuvious]

9 hours ago, jonnguy2015 said:

Fans always hype up their team's players. Purdy made that hype reality

If you're going to argue that Purdy has made Aiyuk more productive, could you also not argue that Purdy has made Deebo less so? Or Kittle, who is on pace this year for his lowest yards per game since his rookie season.

Personally, I think both would be poor arguments, but you get the point.

Aiyuk has steadily improved every single year and has very clearly taken over as the primary target in San Fran over Kittle and Deebo. Doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

[bigbadbuff]

18 hours ago, Soko said:

In all fairness, two of those games they also had a chance in OT to win the game and didn’t score any points. 

In losses, the offense scored 16, 20, 25, 18, 22, and 34. In wins, the defense gave up 10, 3, 20, 9, 18, and 6. Something’s up.

Kicked a fg in Philly but yeah, I hear ya. If offense plays well, defense sucks, if defense plays well, offense is off. Thing is in Allen’s career, the defense has let him down time and time again at the end of games. The only game I can really remember is the Giants game where the defense held and that was barely even a hold the giants got to the 2 yard line and had a play to win it as time expired. It’s like Josh and the offense have to leave literally zero time on the clock or McDermott’s ****ty prevent defense folds like a cheap tent. (See 13 seconds)

[CP3MVP]

19 hours ago, Soko said:

In all fairness, two of those games they also had a chance in OT to win the game and didn’t score any points. 

In losses, the offense scored 16, 20, 25, 18, 22, and 34. In wins, the defense gave up 10, 3, 20, 9, 18, and 6. Something’s up.

The only game allen played great in from start to finish and lost all season was the eagles game. The stats looks pretty against the jags but the offense did nothing for 90% of that game 

[Soko]

1 hour ago, CP3MVP said:

The only game allen played great in from start to finish and lost all season was the eagles game. The stats looks pretty against the jags but the offense did nothing for 90% of that game 

Well yeah, that’s what I’m getting at. The defense is a step down from what it was a couple years ago, but even then, the offense and defense don’t pick up each other’s slack. Seems that, for the most part, the whole team is either up for the game or they’re not - Philly of course being the main exception. 

They’ve kinda been that team - the one that “plays up or down to the competition” -  for a little bit now, but generally they’ve overcome that. Not really sure what the issue is there but the easy/lazy answer is coaching. 

Anyways, sort of a tangent. Nothing Josh Allen related belongs in the MVP race thread.

[J-ALL-DAY]

Another strong performance by Purdy. 

What you got Dak? 

[Forge]

2 hours ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Another strong performance by Purdy. 

What you got Dak? 

I think the MVP unless he craters rest of season lol

The one thing I wanted from Dak was a big win. He's going to get it while playing well 

[Malfatron]

1 hour ago, Forge said:

I think the MVP unless he craters rest of season lol

The one thing I wanted from Dak was a big win. He's going to get it while playing well 

Yep, its still Daks to lose at this point.

 

[Tank4Drake]

MVP is Dak vs Purdy at this point, but Dak has a pretty decent lead imo.