GDT: LA Rams (3-4) @ Dallas Cowboys (4-2)

[Dallas94Ware]

11 hours ago, PincheJimmy said:

It’s been 1 gm for Levis, albeit a good one , but even so, he wasn’t going to see the field anytime soon here. JPJ at best ,would be our 4th CB, so you spend a 1st rd pk on a 4th CB?? How has Torrence done? I saw a video of him being thrown around like a little kid 🤦‍♂️ . Bergeron was taking with the 38th pk, wouldn’t he be a “reach “ in the 1st rd ??

Man, not every pick is gonna hit , you all make it seem like Dallas is the worst drafting team 🤦‍♂️ 

Bill Parcells once said:

You pick the best player. If he doesn't fit what you're trying to do or he doesn't figure to sit high on the depth chart this year, you pick them anyway and worry about those other things another time.

Who cares if JPJ would have been fourth this year? Gilmore is a rental. And one injury (Diggs) and he is basically a starter. 

Levis would have allowed a potential replacement route for Dak when his contract is up in two years, or even one when the hit is so high on the cap it would be absurd to not extend or cut him. Leverage, and motivation for Dak to work harder. While also installing an extra outlet to plug into if things go south with Dak either on field, with his contract, or both. Whereas you now have a succession plan in place with a potential for an upgrade, but at the least a succession with a much lower cap hit. Someone you can mold with all the traits of a star. And if Dak wins the team a ring or locks up an MVP? Then you've a quality QB prospect to trade - or a former MVP to bring in multiple first round picks in trade, if you fall in love with Levis.

There is no doubt about it - this team drafts well. But it also has a tendency to draft it's needs. All teams do. Some more than others. This team less as often, which is why it was disappointing when they passed on an outstanding prospect at cornerback, guard and quarterback to select Mazi. Then passed on multiple receivers of food value, linebackers, and better DT prospects than Mazi was, to select Schoonmaker. They NEEDED a nose and they NEEDED a TE. And they filled both needs. With prospects of lower potential and lower value than what was available. When typically this is something they rarely do 

The last time they did this? They passed on an eventual DPOY in TJ Watt because the scheme didn't fit what he did best. And instead, selected a player who had as many sacks in his 4 seasons in the league as Watt has had in one career game. They needed a rusher, didn't know where Watt would fit, so rather than "worry about that later" like Bill once said to do, they went with the player who fit their mold.

Do you think Dak and Zekes prime years together in 2017, 18, 19...that they go to such waste as they did, if Watt is rushing Aaron Rodgers that one playoff game? Or if Watt is out there disrupting the pocket of the Rams and cleaning up their run game that they finished us off with?

That one decision changed the course of the team and careers of some of this teams biggest impact draft picks. You can't really debate what ifs using hindsight, its unfair of me, I know that. But it's an example of how caring where someone slots in on a depth chart or a system more than simply how damn good they can be is one of the worst things you can do in a draft room.

As for "reach" - value is always in the eye of the beholder. Bergeron went 38th because Dallas didn't pick him at 26. Jpj went 32nd because Seattle didn't take him at 6 or whatever it was. But hadneither of those happened, who says its a reach? Some analyst on TV? Who cares, cause certainly the team selected the player they felt was best.

And that's what hurts most in this draft. Is Jerry in that Roku documentary even lists Bergeron as ahead of Mazi. And I think they probably would have went Kincaid had Buffalo not jumped them, and it left them scrambling for another option later. But they didn't reach so much as pass on better options because they felt pressed into filling needs, instead of improving their roster.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Dallas94Ware

[Nextyearfordaboyz]

10 hours ago, Dallas94Ware said:

And that's what hurts most in this draft. Is Jerry in that Roku documentary even lists Bergeron as ahead of Mazi. And I think they probably would have went Kincaid had Buffalo not jumped them, and it left them scrambling for another option later. But they didn't reach so much as pass on better options because they felt pressed into filling needs, instead of improving their roster.

 

How can you have watched the Roku documentary and come away with this opinion? 

1) It is undeniable fact that the Cowboys were not considering Kincaid at #27. They were not remotely left scrambling after Buffalo made their trade. To continue to hold this opinion is to be untethered from reality.

2) Bergeron and Mazi were #12 and #13 on their board. Jerry mentions Bergeron first in discussions. Does that mean Bergeron was ranked #12? Maybe, but that’s not 100%. Jerry also said “there is no difference between the talent of these two as football players”. So essentially, they had the exact same grade, and everyone in the room agreed Mazi was the right pick. I would agree that need played a tie-breaking role in that decision, which is very reasonable.

The big mistake was not taking the trade from Kansas City. They got too confident in their eval and could’ve added another top-100 pick. That was an error. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Nextyearfordaboyz

[DaBoys]

I will also concede that this draft class as a whole wasn’t that great. There weren’t that many stud bonafide first rounders. And we picked 26. That said, the entire off-season we acted like JPJ was one if those bonafide studs that we had no shot at, and Levis could be included there as well. Most people had never heard of Bergeron until after that video came out, so I considered that fake outrage or hindsight outrage. At least, on these boards 

Edited October 31, 2023 by DaBoys

[Tony7188]

On 10/30/2023 at 8:09 AM, DaBoys said:

Sure they aren’t reaches based on THEIR evaluations. Taco wasn’t a reach on their evaluations. But it’s pretty obvious that was them saying hey we NEED someone bigger than TJ Watt because we NEED a hand in the dirt DE.

We didn’t NEED Will Levis. We Didn’t NEED JPJ or Bergeron. We needed a run stuffer who wasn’t even the best DT on the board. Breese was. We NEEDED a TE to replace Schultz. We didn’t NEED Torrence. 

I do agree that the entire body of work from the draft dudes has been top notch(other franchises like Baltimore and Pittsburgh are close too.) But last year was a needs draft. No doubt about it. I don’t believe there’s anyway in Gods green hell that they had Schoonmaker ranked as the 58th best player in college football. He was just the best TE left after the run. Based on their evaluations 

All facts.

[Tony7188]

5 hours ago, DaBoys said:

I will also concede that this draft class as a whole wasn’t that great. There weren’t that many stud bonafide first rounders. And we picked 26. That said, the entire off-season we acted like JPJ was one if those bonafide studs that we had no shot at, and Levis could be included there as well. Most people had never heard of Bergeron until after that video came out, so I considered that fake outrage or hindsight outrage. At least, on these boards 

I wanted Kincaid, Addison or Zay Jones and hoped that the Cowboys would do a minor trade up, as they would’ve been huge upgrades. I couldn’t believe Dallas stood pat and chose Mazi. I didn’t know about Bergeron until after the video, but choosing him would’ve made a ton of sense seeing as how Tyron can never stay healthy and Tyler was good at LT.
 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Tony7188

[Dallas94Ware]

7 hours ago, DaBoys said:

I will also concede that this draft class as a whole wasn’t that great. There weren’t that many stud bonafide first rounders. And we picked 26. That said, the entire off-season we acted like JPJ was one if those bonafide studs that we had no shot at, and Levis could be included there as well. Most people had never heard of Bergeron until after that video came out, so I considered that fake outrage or hindsight outrage. At least, on these boards 

And @Nextyearfordaboyz

It was top heavy. Anderson has the athleticism to become a hell of a pass rusher, though he could easily fail in his development and become Jadeveon Clowney. Idk. But he was a given top pick. Stroud and Young both had a lot of upside, Richardson is the same piece of clay they used to sculpt Allen and Mahomes from, so if sculpted right he will be elite; Levis had all the prototype pro QB properties and should have gone high (hence my frustration at Dallas not selecting him as a successor to a double injured, 30 year old, high paid veteran with the same amount of playoff wins as Case Keenum). And I can go on and on about the top corners and such. But bottom line is, the top of this draft class was stellar. Below that there was a lot of question marks on the next tier of guys. More so than in most years. I'll agree with that 

But regardless of the "next tier" outside of the elite top of the class having more question marks than in usual draft classes, one cant deny that the alternatives to Mazi Smith at that selection had fewer questions marks. The two biggest factors that led them away from those players and to Mazi was

1. the perception of need. MM said "we went into this thing saying shoring up run defense was our top priority." Now this perception of need could have been solved prior to the draft, by bringing in another veteran linebacker and perhaps a veteran nose guard. Neither would have cost much cap wise, because outside of the elite nose players which weren't hitting market anyway, the pay scale and value for these players is LOW (which should already tell you a first round pick on a non-elite nose prospect is stupid). And the Lb depth was already questionable, so veteran help there with a veteran helping on the nose with Hankins would have solved this "need", for a lot cheaper.

2. The idea that Tyron-Tyler-Biadasz-Martin-Steele was going to stay healthy and didn't need help. Bergeron would have not only upgraded center over Biadasz as early as week 1, but possibly allowed the team to cut Tyron (who's injury history has hurt this team just as much as he helps this team when healthy) and save massive cap space, sliding Tyler out to LT where he did quite well, and having Bergeron slide in at LG, creating a much more reliable duo on the left that could solidify that line for not just this season, but for many seasons to come. Biadasz would still be a weak point, but you've invested in the now and the future with this move.

3. The worry that Porter Jr. Did not fit the scheme. As a physical corner more adept at man coverage and playing press, he was not the ideal fit for a coverage system that plays off quite a bit in order to round themselves out into a cover 3 or cover 4 zone package. Where would Porter fit in this? Well simple. You coach him into zone coverage by teaching him communication in coverage (the #1 thing for any zone team) and when you do play man coverages (no team plays zone or man exclusively anymore) you could match him up on the outside with the teams "second" receiver with Gilmore in the slot, where most of his career picks have actually come, and he would be just fine. No one expected an injury to Diggs and we all knew Bland was good but never expected him to be a guy who contends for DPOY back during draft time. But either way, Gilmore is not young and he is a short term rental. JPJr would have been a contributor in year one even without injury, and a long-term solution with Diggs and Bland in the future. Like Parcells said, if you're worried where the player fits in your system, pick him anyway and figure that out later.

4. The belief that with coaching and time, Mazi would be able to be more than a space eating hog in the center of a DL, but develop into a potential pocket disrupting interior DL capable of splitting the interior blocks and aiding in pass rush or making stops for losses. But nothing in his college film shows this ability. Of course I'm not a pro scout, so I'm sure Vaughn and McClay saw something to make them believe it is possible. But I am curious where DQ was in this process, because you just don't see Mazi's college play translating into Aaron Donald or Vita Vea. He was disruptive but infrequently. Infrequently in college usually means nearly impossible in the NFL. And I'm almost certain that given the option of a slow, massively strong, non-explosive off the snap but heavy motored DT and a physical, lengthy armed, tackle-capable, explosive closing speed corner, he would pick the corner everytime regardless of 'need'

5. The idea that Dak is still the man. And you know what? For all the hate he gets, he may well still be the man. He is terrible when he is terrible. But he is great when he isnt terrible. He has been in MVP consideration at a couple points in his better seasons, and he's put up a lot of yards, points and wins in his career. But he has as many playoff wins as Case Keenum, is 30, due for a new deal that will turn into a pay raise request, when we have so many young stars up for new deals very soon and can't keep them all. Selecting a potential top 5-10 player at QB that low in the first could have been everything from just an insurance policy to a long term answer and upgrade. We will never know now which, but the pick would have been both logical, smart, and shown they were thinking ahead, while also capitalizing on a remarkable slide for an extremely talented prospect at the most prime position.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Dallas94Ware

[quiller]

I understand all this and there are some great points made against Mazi.  I personally think they made a huge mistake in not going Bergeron. To me that is the only possible alternative.  None of the other picks would have been expected to really make the field this season.  Porter maybe in some packages being no 5 in depth chart and you don’t spend a first round pick on some one who “might” make the field and would not even be considered in position to be a starter NEXT year due to us having Bland Diggs and Lewis as our three CB. And Lewis?   We already are complaining about our second rounder who is going to take a year plus to be a solid contributor and you want us to spend a 1st on a guy for three years down the road when the time is NOW.